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Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

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Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#251

Post by malthuswaswrong »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #193
didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: End “consumerism” behavior where every problem is perceived to have a solution in the form of a quick product you can buy - much of that is a psychological trick played by marketers and rarely solves the real problem. Take note of the goods and services we really need. Things like food, shelter, shoes, etc. Des…

>Take note of the goods and services we really need. Things like food, shelter, shoes, etc.

I assume someone must be in charge of determining what products are essential and what products are frivolous consumerism. I assume you have someone in mind for the job. Yourself perhaps?

I'm a big girl. I can make my own decisions on what is essential and what is frivolous in my own life.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#252

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

They also didn't have access to computers, credit cards, and often were exploited via Corvee labor because they had no money. I'd trade working more for a convenient life as opposed to a relaxed but difficult one. People died of disease, famine, and war often. I mean why would you work hard knowing those major things are constantly knocking on your doorstep?

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#253

Post by TaylorAlexander »

clairity wrote: post #238
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate on what you mean when you say ending consumerism is completely unrealistic?

just zoom out and really look at the scope of the issue: 7+ billion people in the world want stuff. there's a huge matching problem between the want and the stuff, and a huge geographic/wealth/information asymmetry as well. there's going to be a lot of friction and waste in that huge, inefficient matching process (e.g., 30-40% of US food goes into the trash, 30-40% of stuff is returned to retailers). to achieve your…

You and I view this very differently. First of all, getting people goods that they need is not consumerism. Consumerism is the idea that buying a new car or a Pepsi will make you feel better. Or that doing so will make you “cool”. So for example most car manufacturers come out with a new model every year and then push the idea that buying a new model is an indicator of success. But I claim we would be better off if cars were more similar year to year so that replacement parts were more common year to year. This would make repair easier and lower waste. The problem is not getting people cars (well, cars in particular are a contentious example…). The problem isn’t getting people goods they need. Is that the companies who make those goods use psychological tricks to convince us we need to upgrade even when our thing is working. And they design their products with the upgrade in mind and it all leads to more waste.

To be honest it’s difficult for me to describe what I mean when I say consumerism. But getting people goods they need is not in and of itself consumerism. Consumerism is like the military industrial complex. It creates problems to feed a bloated production machine that consumes more and more because it benefits those in charge of the whole thing. And so consumerism leads our culture to believe the person with the new watch is cool and we all believe we must work day in and day out to compete in an endless game of consumption.

That is very different than, say, manufacturing electrical transformers and cabling so a new town can have electricity. In the middle the line is not clear but we can focus at first on the extents.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#254

Post by TaylorAlexander »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #226
clairity wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and/or idealized socialism. i agree that consumerism is an issue, but the solution isn't 'end consumerism', as that's just completely unrealistic. it'd be more realistic to think of ways to redirect our esteem-giving activities toward people who produce real and essential goods, and the rest would balance out much better as a result. that's diametrically opposed to our corrent system of giving esteem to the wealth…

Isn't ending consumerism essential to avoid running out of resources.

I’d say so yes.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#255

Post by bserge »

bluejellybean wrote: post #231
SequoiaHope wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: End “consumerism” behavior where every problem is perceived to have a solution in the form of a quick product you can buy - much of that is a psychological trick played by marketers and rarely solves the real problem. Take note of the goods and services we really need. Things like food, shelter, shoes, etc. Des…

> I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: Until we had extremely advanced robotics, endless land, and infinite energy/resources, this will never become reality, even then, I have an endless amount of vanity uses of human labor/resources and I could trivially think up. By way of example, if it were the case in which money no issue for me personally, I…

Lot of good points, but the modern rich are your dictators/etc.

The current system is quite fine, as you noted, sadly it just doesn't actually work much because it's highjacked/corrupted by the rich.

It can't even make them pay taxes properly anymore (used to work better in the past).

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#256

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

> Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does.

Every single physical labor job person I speak to complains about back issues, being tired, or work significant overtime. They're all stuck and can't shift careers cause they're too far in.

>There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining

It sounds like you were either in the field for money or are just in a shitty company.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#257

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

tiefquart wrote: post #222
didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

I feel that. I'm quite open and creative but writing poems and bringing 10 different music instruments to a novice+ level won't pay my bills. So I studied some STEM and worked in a field that interests me. But working in consulting brought me to a burnout in just under 2 years. I quit and now have a chill desk job, but even now - I often can't motivate myself and I see no point in sitting 8 hours at a desk, when I ca…

Glad I'm not the only one without motivation to work but make it look like I do :)

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#259

Post by dan-robertson »

after_care wrote: post #246
didibus wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, I think I need to be more specific, assembly line work in some factory might count as physical labor, and that might not be any better, I can't say as I've never had that job. I'm thinking more in terms of the article, construction work, farming, and the more pre-industrial kind of physical labor. For me specifically, it was construction work, bus boy, landscaping, janitorial work and military training.…

Probably the most common pre-industrial job was farmer, which is super repetitive. Imagine a task like tilling with a hoe, which would be a very repetitive and strong swinging motion.

It’s repetitive in the sense that one does the same thing many times but not in the sense that one does the same thing day in day out as there are many things to be done and they vary throughout the year.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#260

Post by WalterBright »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #193
didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: End “consumerism” behavior where every problem is perceived to have a solution in the form of a quick product you can buy - much of that is a psychological trick played by marketers and rarely solves the real problem. Take note of the goods and services we really need. Things like food, shelter, shoes, etc. Des…

> Anyway that’s my theory

Not really. It's called communism, and it's been tried many times.

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