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How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

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Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#71

Post by spacemanaki »

gruseom wrote: post #58
spacemanaki wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The subject has nothing to do with honing one's programming skills. It has to do with a large segment of the population (one of the "humps" in "double hump") who can't grasp even the very first, simplest things about programming, like defining a function." Sorry but I think you're mistaken, possibly due to the other link on the front page right now ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2902903 ). In this blogpost Je…

Thanks for the correction. I updated the mistaken paragraph.

FWIW I think your point was well suited as a counter to the attitude in the first half of Atwood's article, so I'm glad you posted!

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#72

Post by Troll_Whisperer »

St-Clock wrote: post #10

"I agree with Bill. From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that." This is a very condescending look on humanity and I did not know that Jeff had said such things. To anyone thinking the same, let me introduce you to the concept of deliberate practice (how to really improve a…

The author of that also uses a great deal of selective evidence, flat out ignoring genetic research in relationship to music, for example. Specific genetic sequences have been linked both to perfect pitch and to success in classical music. If you can't find it via a quick google search, I'll be happy to provide citations.

Evidence for the role of genetics in running, swimming and a variety of other sports is equally overwhelming. In short, he (and others like him such as gladwell) sell a fantasy that millions, possibly billions would like to believe. It's an excellent strategy for selling books and developing a base of hard-core fans, but it's just not true.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#73

Post by snarfy »

Part of the controversy with this article is that it is combining two separate ideas into one concept, blurring the differences.

Implementing software is something you can absolutely get better at with experience, discipline, and practice. You only need to look at your old code for evidence of this.

Designing software takes imagination and creativity. Experience and practice may give you a tool chest of preconceived ideas to use when designing your own software, but it isn't going to help you conceive completely new ideas yourself. That requires thinking outside of the box, and it's not something you learn by studying the nuances of implementation. It's not even something you learn by studying programming. IMO this is what Atwood is talking about.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#74

Post by lutorm »

mattm wrote: post #54
edw519 wrote: post #16

From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that. What a scary thought. Good thing it's not true. One of the many reasons I became a programmer was that the sky was the limit. Still is. Want to learn something new? Learn it. Want to build something cool? Build it. The only real l…

I'd like to agree but do you honestly believe someone like, say, Paris Hilton could become a good programmer? Because unless I'm mistaken, it seems you are arguing for that. I believe sometimes, some people, just aren't suited for a particular craft. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's a good thing that everyone has skills and interests in different areas. To be a good programmer, there are a lot of pre-requisi…

"IMO, he needed to first learn how to listen and receive feedback before he could move on to the next step. Unfortunately, some people are just too stubborn and will not change."

That comment is largely true regardless of what the subject is, not just for programming. Inability to admit error is a huge hurdle for learning in general, because it prevents you from learning from your mistakes and may also prevent you from challenging yourself.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#75

Post by lutorm »

edw519 wrote: post #16

From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that. What a scary thought. Good thing it's not true. One of the many reasons I became a programmer was that the sky was the limit. Still is. Want to learn something new? Learn it. Want to build something cool? Build it. The only real l…

I'm firmly convinced that almost any of us can get better, much better.

I'm totally in agreement with you about that. However, for professional success in many fields (not just sports), the game is relative ability. While I'm convinced everyone can get better, what really matters in the context of finding jobs is whether you are catching up with everyone else or sliding further behind.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#76

Post by drieddust »

mattm wrote: post #54
edw519 wrote: post #16

From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that. What a scary thought. Good thing it's not true. One of the many reasons I became a programmer was that the sky was the limit. Still is. Want to learn something new? Learn it. Want to build something cool? Build it. The only real l…

I'd like to agree but do you honestly believe someone like, say, Paris Hilton could become a good programmer? Because unless I'm mistaken, it seems you are arguing for that. I believe sometimes, some people, just aren't suited for a particular craft. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's a good thing that everyone has skills and interests in different areas. To be a good programmer, there are a lot of pre-requisi…

I agree completely and it is not your fsult. Personally I have come across people who do not want to put any effort. So when you ask then questions they become either defensive or arrogant.

Basically they have zero interest in technology or programming. They are in it because it pays well.

This article applies to these people.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#77

Post by mike_esspe »

pnathan wrote: post #59
edw519 wrote: post #16

From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that. What a scary thought. Good thing it's not true. One of the many reasons I became a programmer was that the sky was the limit. Still is. Want to learn something new? Learn it. Want to build something cool? Build it. The only real l…

Have you ever taught programming to adults? I have. Some people were nearly incapable of grasping the matter. Others could do it as easily as buttering a sandwich. I do not believe it is always a question of circumstance, but a question of an innate, inbuilt ability. Some people can and did rise above their personal weakness, through hard work and study. Chess and programming are cousins in thought.

Does these adults learn programming because they want to program, or due to some other reasons (e.g. money, or they are forced to)?

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#78

Post by __rkaup__ »

avar wrote: post #61
bgurupra wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole idea that we try so hard to believe in "Everybody is born equal and we are the masters of our destiny" maybe be evolutionary in nature .I was reading a book introducing evolution (and I forget the name but can dig it up if somebody wants the source) that individuals of a species sometimes start working together in such cohesion that they no longer are really individuals but are combined into one "social org…

Your notion about bees cooperating isn't the accepted view in modern biology. The Selfish Gene does a good job of explaining why this isn't the case, there's a lot of competition going on within a bee hive.

I got the opposite idea from that book. I remember it explaining that ants (or perhaps it was something else) would cooperate because often they all had the same DNA, and so were working to propagate the same genes.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#80

Post by jdietrich »

edw519 wrote: post #16

From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that. What a scary thought. Good thing it's not true. One of the many reasons I became a programmer was that the sky was the limit. Still is. Want to learn something new? Learn it. Want to build something cool? Build it. The only real l…

Why isn't writing software like chess or sport?

The highest ranked player in the world is twenty years old. Any local chess club is full of people who have studied the game for years but failed to break 1400. I've taught people who were just incapable of the most rudimentary strategic thinking and people who just naturally saw things that it took me years to learn.

The evidence is clear that there are people in the world who just can't solve FizzBuzz, many of them people with degrees in CS. Some people just seem unable to grok the basic abstraction of programming. What if that isn't a binary state, but just one extreme of a spectrum?

I can run 10k in 40 minutes any day of the week, but I sprint like an asthmatic Samoan. I just have distance genes, nothing I can do to change it. No amount of training would ever make me a competitive sprinter. I've got too little fast twitch fibre, I'm too short, too lean, my heart and lungs are too small. Is it completely implausible to suggest that there are cognitive equivalents that would pertain to programming?

Why couldn't mental stamina be as genetically ingrained as physical stamina? There are obviously natural geniuses in our field, why not natural dunces?

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