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How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

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Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#51

Post by danielharan »

Chirono wrote: post #18
cageface wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the most productive programmers I've known toss code together in a horrifying slapdash fashion but somehow get great things done. And sometimes people with far more precise and mathematical minds just get mired in their beautiful architectures. The common trait I've seen in all exceptional programmers is an ability to keep a tremendous number of details in memory at one time. Most real world code is not lambd…

The common trait I've seen in all exceptional programmers is an ability to keep a tremendous number of details in memory at one time Would you care to elaborate on this? I'm a programmer with 'precise and mathematical mind' and I'd say that my one big weakness is exactly that: I struggle to large numbers of disconnected facts in my head at one time.

Same here - the best could just read APIs and start using them, while I was always referring back to them.

I've started meditation again; dual n-backed games are next to try and improve my working memory and concentration. Also, just regularly re-reading the core APIs I'm working with.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#52

Post by bgurupra »

edw519 wrote: post #16

From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that. What a scary thought. Good thing it's not true. One of the many reasons I became a programmer was that the sky was the limit. Still is. Want to learn something new? Learn it. Want to build something cool? Build it. The only real l…

The whole idea that we try so hard to believe in "Everybody is born equal and we are the masters of our destiny" maybe be evolutionary in nature .I was reading a book introducing evolution (and I forget the name but can dig it up if somebody wants the source) that individuals of a species sometimes start working together in such cohesion that they no longer are really individuals but are combined into one "social organism" if you will.

For example Bees ,though they are made up of individual bees they don't cross compete but actually work together to protect the whole group and it makes sense to look at the group as one entity instead of a bunch of individual bees.

The author of the book argued that human beings also have crossed that line from being individual members of a species to being a "social organism" that functions as one and in this scenario it really hurts to have a few select individuals born "better" than the rest.This is because we no longer are cross competing but are trying to optimize as a whole and it doesn't makes sense when you are doing that to have some people have better chances of survival etc as it will ruin the cohesion

Now I highly doubt if we are really born equal but that is just my opinion, from what I have seen around some people clearly were better than the rest in certain things even with other factors being more or less alike

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#53

Post by cloudhead »

jeffreymcmanus wrote: post #47
cloudhead wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of talent is knowing how to learn the right way.

Maybe true, but "knowing how to learn" doesn't completely cover it. It's absolutely possible to make middle-of-the-road developers into good developers through training and mentorship. It's just that many (possibly most) developers don't get opportunities for good training. They're expected to use their "talent" to figure things out on their own, which in most cases means Googling or trial-and-error experimentation.…

I agree, it's sad that not everyone gets the opportunity to have a great mentor. But somehow, when it's meant to be, most will still push through.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#54

Post by mattm »

edw519 wrote: post #16

From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that. What a scary thought. Good thing it's not true. One of the many reasons I became a programmer was that the sky was the limit. Still is. Want to learn something new? Learn it. Want to build something cool? Build it. The only real l…

I'd like to agree but do you honestly believe someone like, say, Paris Hilton could become a good programmer? Because unless I'm mistaken, it seems you are arguing for that.

I believe sometimes, some people, just aren't suited for a particular craft. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's a good thing that everyone has skills and interests in different areas.

To be a good programmer, there are a lot of pre-requisites one needs to learn first - skills such as a passion for self-learning, ability to think logically, ability to receive feedback and improve on that, etc. If someone begins as a programmer without these pre-reqs they will have a very difficult time getting to the stage where they can be a good developer.

I recently worked with a junior programmer that just wouldn't listen. I would try to advise him but he would completely ignore it and just go back to copying and pasting code and hoping it would work. Even walking through code line-by-line it was clear he had trouble understanding simple assignments.

Now, maybe that is my fault as a mentor but, IMO, he needed to first learn how to listen and receive feedback before he could move on to the next step. Unfortunately, some people are just too stubborn and will not change. For those people, I don't see how they could become great programmers.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#55

Post by gruseom »

singular wrote: post #25
edw519 wrote: post #16

From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that. What a scary thought. Good thing it's not true. One of the many reasons I became a programmer was that the sky was the limit. Still is. Want to learn something new? Learn it. Want to build something cool? Build it. The only real l…

I am so , so glad you said this. I've been experiencing such a crisis of confidence recently around the idea that I lack talent, so much so that I've felt like there was no point in trying to improve things beyond where they are, or to even risk being criticised that it's totally frozen me up. Thank you.

Please don't make the mistake of assuming this discussion applies to you. The subject has nothing to do with honing one's programming skills. [Edit: oops, I confused this thread with another. Never mind, the real point follows.]

As for crises of confidence, what makes them tough is that they opportunistically seize on every item that floats through consciousness and turn it into some new weapon to batter you with. One thing I found helped is to give up on the idea of "talent" altogether and just focus on things that interest you and give you pleasure (edit: and best of all, have value to others) whether or not you have any talent at all.

Actually, someone who really lacked talent probably wouldn't feel the way you describe. They'd just drop out of the game and rationalize it as "that stuff sucks anyway". So you probably do have talent, but the state you're describing is not one that can accurately assess anything remotely related to the idea. In such a state, it can actually be creatively liberating to just redefine yourself as a fool and get on with it. It's like when you're sitting by a swimming pool enjoying the sun and someone starts splashing you with water. If you can't get them to stop, a good defense is to just jump in the pool.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#57

Post by spacemanaki »

gruseom wrote: post #55
singular wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am so , so glad you said this. I've been experiencing such a crisis of confidence recently around the idea that I lack talent, so much so that I've felt like there was no point in trying to improve things beyond where they are, or to even risk being criticised that it's totally frozen me up. Thank you.

Please don't make the mistake of assuming this discussion applies to you. The subject has nothing to do with honing one's programming skills. [Edit: oops, I confused this thread with another. Never mind, the real point follows.] As for crises of confidence, what makes them tough is that they opportunistically seize on every item that floats through consciousness and turn it into some new weapon to batter you with. On…

"The subject has nothing to do with honing one's programming skills. It has to do with a large segment of the population (one of the "humps" in "double hump") who can't grasp even the very first, simplest things about programming, like defining a function."

Sorry but I think you're mistaken, possibly due to the other link on the front page right now (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2902903).

In this blogpost Jeff Atwood is specifically NOT talking about people who can't grasp the first thing about programming:

"We already know there's a vast divide between those who can program and those who cannot.

But the dirty little secret of the software development industry is that this is also true even for people who can program: there's a vast divide between good developers and mediocre developers. A mediocre developer can program his or her heart out for four years, but that won't magically transform them into a good developer. And the good developers always seem to have a natural knack for the stuff from the very beginning."

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#58

Post by gruseom »

spacemanaki wrote: post #57
gruseom wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't make the mistake of assuming this discussion applies to you. The subject has nothing to do with honing one's programming skills. [Edit: oops, I confused this thread with another. Never mind, the real point follows.] As for crises of confidence, what makes them tough is that they opportunistically seize on every item that floats through consciousness and turn it into some new weapon to batter you with. On…

"The subject has nothing to do with honing one's programming skills. It has to do with a large segment of the population (one of the "humps" in "double hump") who can't grasp even the very first, simplest things about programming, like defining a function." Sorry but I think you're mistaken, possibly due to the other link on the front page right now ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2902903 ). In this blogpost Je…

Thanks for the correction. I updated the mistaken paragraph.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#59

Post by pnathan »

edw519 wrote: post #16

From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that. What a scary thought. Good thing it's not true. One of the many reasons I became a programmer was that the sky was the limit. Still is. Want to learn something new? Learn it. Want to build something cool? Build it. The only real l…

Have you ever taught programming to adults?

I have. Some people were nearly incapable of grasping the matter. Others could do it as easily as buttering a sandwich. I do not believe it is always a question of circumstance, but a question of an innate, inbuilt ability. Some people can and did rise above their personal weakness, through hard work and study.

Chess and programming are cousins in thought.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#60

Post by dionidium »

mquander wrote: post #48
edw519 wrote: post #16

From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that. What a scary thought. Good thing it's not true. One of the many reasons I became a programmer was that the sky was the limit. Still is. Want to learn something new? Learn it. Want to build something cool? Build it. The only real l…

This is a hilarious remark: We are not like basketball players or musicians or chess masters where only the extremely gifted (who also work hard) can rise to the top of their craft. With few exceptions, we all can. I have no idea why, in the same breath as you disclaim the necessity of inborn talent for computer programming, you reaffirm that necessity for some arbitrary skills that you plucked out of nowhere. You ha…

OK, but the reference to athletics is valid. There are outliers -- Muggsy Bogues or Dustin Pedroia -- but there's a reason that most professional pitchers are 6'2''. You can't get taller, no matter how hard you try.
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