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Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

economist.com

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Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#121

Post by rossjudson »

EMM_386 wrote: post #32
icelancer wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> We are also beginning to compete globally, far more than ever before with the ease of remote work. Qualified engineers can be found for 1/10th of the price with "near shore" companies in the "rich world". Yep. I've said it many times here and basically anywhere I can: Clamoring for remote-only work, maximum-introvert, never fly somewhere, don't value in-person communication/meetings/etc is a dangerous game to be p…

> Yep. I've said it many times here and basically anywhere I can: Clamoring for remote-only work, maximum-introvert, never fly somewhere, don't value in-person communication/meetings/etc is a dangerous game to be playing. What's interesting is that I flew in for a meeting with my company recently, the first I've had since I've been hired. This took hours upon hours of my time. Time I could have spent working. We spen…

If I were advising you, I might note that your post is all about you.

Consider how you define yourself, and where you see your life going over the long term.

Different strengths/reservoirs of energy and motivation are needed to "make it happen" in the real world.

How can you ensure your team will be there when you need them?

The irony of writing this doesn't escape me, as I weigh the frankly-more-time-efficient-for-me working at home I have now, versus the team-efficiencies of being in the office.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#122

Post by japhyr »

outside1234 wrote: post #73

We’ve been through this multiple times and each time we discover how important communication is in software engineering. I don’t doubt that some people will be remote - but the ones that get ahead will be local - and that will draw people back.

I think you're absolutely right to bring up the importance of communication, but I'm not sure it's as simple as "that will draw people back [to the office]".

I think it will just set up a different selector for who continues to get paid well. I would guess that people who can operate well in all-remote organizations will probably continue to earn high salaries. People who can't get a handle on contributing well, consistently, for an all-remote organization will struggle to take advantage of these changes.

It's one thing to start working with an in-office team, and then continue contributing reasonably well because everyone went remote during the pandemic. It's another thing to get hired for an all-remote team, get your bearings in that organization, start to contribute well, and continue to contribute well.

I think this might go for founders as well. Some people will be able to build and lead an all-remote team. Some people will need the bulk of their people to be in an office in order to build an effective team.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#123

Post by GhostVII »

EMM_386 wrote: post #19

Everyone should keep in mind that water seeks its own level. And think of this on a global scale. I've been working remotely for almost a decade as a senior software engineer. Now, post-Covid, almost everyone realizes they can do the same. Salaries are going to drop in the "rich world", and it's not just because people are now fleeing places like SF/SV to lower cost of living areas. We are also beginning to compete g…

But for big tech companies at least I don't think money is really a significant concern. It's probably better for them to pay 10x for an engineer if that engineer has twice the chance of being a very strong performer than the one they could hire for 1x.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#124

Post by EMM_386 »

siva7 wrote: post #97
EMM_386 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think about this sometimes, because while I did have a successful stint as a team lead, now i'm just a senior SWE. Things have turned out pretty well so far. I've only seen salaries go up. This is different because Covid-19 has shown to everyone that they can do their jobs remotely. And if they can do their jobs remotely, why can't an equally skilled engineer in a country with a cost of living 1/10th of the "rich…

This is not so different as one might believe. Those exact arguments about off-shoring and remote work already existed back then. Even your first argument was pretty much the same in all those other events as “has been shown that every code monkey can do their job remotely”. Turned out pretty soon that Software engineering is much more than just churning out code.

> This is not so different as one might believe. Those exact arguments about off-shoring and remote work already existed back then.

This is far different than then.

In 2000, remote work was almost an impossibility... between bandwidth, protocols and everything else.

These days it's as easy as enabling your built-in HD cam and mic and getting to business.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#125

Post by LurkingPenguin »

EMM_386 wrote: post #62
VirusNewbie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been hearing this argument for 20 years. I was doing ASP/Perl programming while I was in high school in 2000, and I remember being told that I need to move into management because soon all the jobs would be offshored to India. Then in 2008 when the economy crashed I had one bizdev guy tell me that pretty soon everyone was going to be able to code with these new 'no code apps' and that I was going to be a fossil…

> I think about this sometimes, because while I did have a successful stint as a team lead, now i'm just a senior SWE. Things have turned out pretty well so far. I've only seen salaries go up. This is different because Covid-19 has shown to everyone that they can do their jobs remotely. And if they can do their jobs remotely, why can't an equally skilled engineer in a country with a cost of living 1/10th of the "rich…

> And if they can do their jobs remotely, why can't an equally skilled engineer in a country with a cost of living 1/10th of the "rich countries" do the same?

I'm an American expat and one of the things that I quickly discovered when I left and started traveling is that skilled engineers (and designers, etc.) in countries with significantly lower costs end up figuring out how much they're worth to employers/clients in richer countries. When they do and they have enough of a track record to prove their worth, their rates go up.

So if you think you're going to take your freelance developer in the US who charges $150/hour and replace him with an equally skilled freelance web developer in, say, Brazil for $15/hour, good luck. Any such developer in the Brazil will eventually discover that he's able to command much more. Except in a few rare instances it won't be $150/hour, but when you factor in time zones, cultural differences and language, there is far less of a difference in cost than you'd think.

Anecdotally, I have a few friends that run companies in the US that have expanded their hiring to consider remote candidates outside of the US and Canada and they still struggle to find suitable candidates even though the rates they're offering are based on qualifications, not location. In other words, they're willing to pay $100+/hour to the right people no matter where they live. Good people are in demand everywhere, and they know it.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#126

Post by newyankee »

rsj_hn wrote: post #108
naveen99 wrote: post #103

India (and a lot of the rest of the 3rd world more accepting of English) could leapfrog China (and other my language only, no thanks English countries), with remote first work.

As a big fan of India, I've been waiting and hoping for them to leapfrog China. But I realized it's not happening, because for some reason they don't seem so have the same state capacity to act. It's a bunch of individuals, thousands of little groups suspicious of each other, struggling to provide even basic infrastructure in their largest cities. And constant brain drain to the West. I really wish India well, and ho…

You are underestimating the scale at which infrastructure is being built in India. The bureaucracy, at least at the higher levels is much faster. Having said that, I do not believe we will leapfrog but maintain consistent growth rate. China is almost 6x our economy. I hope we reach at least a third to half their GDP in 25 years given that our populations are quite similar.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#127

Post by [deleted] »

bob1029 wrote: post #114
EMM_386 wrote: post #19

Everyone should keep in mind that water seeks its own level. And think of this on a global scale. I've been working remotely for almost a decade as a senior software engineer. Now, post-Covid, almost everyone realizes they can do the same. Salaries are going to drop in the "rich world", and it's not just because people are now fleeing places like SF/SV to lower cost of living areas. We are also beginning to compete g…

> We are also beginning to compete globally, far more than ever before with the ease of remote work. Qualified engineers can be found for 1/10th of the price with "near shore" companies in the "rich world". Sounds familiar... I think you still get what you pay for. There are certainly a lot of products where it doesn't matter at all , but in other areas you really need to be careful with what you send to the contract…

[deleted]

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#128

Post by tayo42 »

tjr225 wrote: post #45
notadoc wrote: post #36

Now the developed world will compete with the developing world to lower wages in the developed world. The high salaries and perks for many USA tech jobs may not last much longer. No need for companies to pay more for premium locations / perk offices. No need for companies to deal with the hassle of H1B visas. From a company perspective, why pay someone in the USA $165k/year to work from home in Trendyville when an In…

Have you worked with someone in Bangalore? No offense my Bangalore homies, but I’ve only had bad experiences. Same with Bulgaria. Weird communication issues and bad work. This was especially the case in customer facing work. Ive had better experience with people in the NL but still obvious communication issues, bad experiences with Australia and Asia. For better or for worse(I think worse) engineering culture is heav…

I've had similar experiences, but any forienger/immigrant that is in the US tends to be much better. Always thought that was interesting

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#129

Post by 8eye »

EMM_386 wrote: post #19

Everyone should keep in mind that water seeks its own level. And think of this on a global scale. I've been working remotely for almost a decade as a senior software engineer. Now, post-Covid, almost everyone realizes they can do the same. Salaries are going to drop in the "rich world", and it's not just because people are now fleeing places like SF/SV to lower cost of living areas. We are also beginning to compete g…

that is true but there is regulation that has been set to protect that type of offshoring. realistically though, we will get to a point of one of the goals of capitalism, and that is equilibrium. whatever that looks like, i am an optimistic, (some would view it as pessimistic), but work or work as which we know it will cease to be relevant in a post human production society. nearly 8 billion people connected is new, i know we are all not connected yet, but to assume or pretend that will never happen is only operating at half consciousness and the experience it has to offer. i believe in work, it will exist for awhile but our interpretation of work will at some point change.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#130

Post by theonething »

notadoc wrote: post #36

Now the developed world will compete with the developing world to lower wages in the developed world. The high salaries and perks for many USA tech jobs may not last much longer. No need for companies to pay more for premium locations / perk offices. No need for companies to deal with the hassle of H1B visas. From a company perspective, why pay someone in the USA $165k/year to work from home in Trendyville when an In…

Anecdotal, but the shittiest code I come across as a freelancer has been from overseas Indian "engineers."
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