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Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

economist.com

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Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#91

Post by synergy20 »

outsourcing has been going on for two decades, what's this so different other than more difficult to manage?

big company will not find individual one by one, an employee overseas is hard to certify and might steal IP then disappear so there is more risk, language barrier, management challenging, time zone difference, not a total rosy picture for me.

but yes for those really outstanding developers they will land a job with USA pay-scale easily, but will this turn into a trend for a global workforce(for ordinary developers) in a flat world remains to be seen.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#92

Post by robjan »

deegles wrote: post #87
outside1234 wrote: post #73

We’ve been through this multiple times and each time we discover how important communication is in software engineering. I don’t doubt that some people will be remote - but the ones that get ahead will be local - and that will draw people back.

Is that objectively true or do you feel it’s true? Not being snarky, but I see this viewpoint a lot and it’s never backed up with numbers. Companies are quick to cite science when sending people to WFH, but the rigor is not there when claims are made about how being in an office makes for a more effective workforce.

Anecdata, I know, but I've yet to find a solution as good as a whiteboard for brainstorming ideas / events / architecture collaboratively.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#93

Post by EMM_386 »

spsoto wrote: post #84
EMM_386 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think about this sometimes, because while I did have a successful stint as a team lead, now i'm just a senior SWE. Things have turned out pretty well so far. I've only seen salaries go up. This is different because Covid-19 has shown to everyone that they can do their jobs remotely. And if they can do their jobs remotely, why can't an equally skilled engineer in a country with a cost of living 1/10th of the "rich…

> This is different because Covid-19 has shown to everyone that they can do their jobs remotely. Citation needed.

> Citation needed.

We're on HN, a technology site.

Many of us have realized we can do our jobs the exact same way as we did before.

I'm not talking about construction workers, police, fast food, etc.

I'm not sure this needs a citation.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#94

Post by bob1029 »

twelvechairs wrote: post #44

I see four main tiers: 1 - 9-5 in office (business as usual), 2 - semi-remote (part of week in the office), 3 - fully remote with fixed hours, 4 - fully remote outcomes-based (no fixed hours but may also be 'on call'). The title of this article perhaps indicates a move from 1 to 3 or 4 but its content discusses 2. All the information I've seen is that business are definitely moving more to 2 than 3 or 4, though some…

Going from any of these items to 4 requires an extra special leap of faith. I personally see anything short of a full 4 as essentially being office work theater.

Our company operates as a 4 tier and I've been here for going on 7 years now. We still have to get on a daily standup call at a fixed time every day, and I still have to participate in other scheduled obligations (mainly tech calls with customers), but the rest of the time is mine to allocate as I see fit.

Also, there are consequences with "no fixed hours" that lots of humans are incapable of dealing with. The amount of discipline it requires to manage this freedom is not insignificant. This said, I am not against multitasking. If you can have something rolling while you get your work done, fuckin awesome. I don't care. I am more worried about the individual lounging on their couch, halfway through a 6 pack of IPA getting in some of that game of thrones re-watch, while the rest of the team is mopping up a shitty merge to master wondering where that individual may be at 11am on a Tuesday.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#95

Post by Areading314 »

robjan wrote: post #92
deegles wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that objectively true or do you feel it’s true? Not being snarky, but I see this viewpoint a lot and it’s never backed up with numbers. Companies are quick to cite science when sending people to WFH, but the rigor is not there when claims are made about how being in an office makes for a more effective workforce.

Anecdata, I know, but I've yet to find a solution as good as a whiteboard for brainstorming ideas / events / architecture collaboratively.

I find excalidraw to be vastly superior to a whiteboard

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#96

Post by Aeolun »

shp0ngle wrote: post #70
EMM_386 wrote: post #19

Everyone should keep in mind that water seeks its own level. And think of this on a global scale. I've been working remotely for almost a decade as a senior software engineer. Now, post-Covid, almost everyone realizes they can do the same. Salaries are going to drop in the "rich world", and it's not just because people are now fleeing places like SF/SV to lower cost of living areas. We are also beginning to compete g…

It depends. The rich countries still prefer to hire in rich countries, because of: * similar timezone/working hours * similar work culture * less language barriers * rich countries still got better skilled workers * less legislative overhead with employments, payments, firing * if you get a really good person in third world, he will in the end cost similarly as good person in first world

> if you get a really good person in third world, he will in the end cost similarly as good person in first world

Inevitably. Because a person like that will very quickly move to the first world.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#97

Post by siva7 »

EMM_386 wrote: post #62
VirusNewbie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been hearing this argument for 20 years. I was doing ASP/Perl programming while I was in high school in 2000, and I remember being told that I need to move into management because soon all the jobs would be offshored to India. Then in 2008 when the economy crashed I had one bizdev guy tell me that pretty soon everyone was going to be able to code with these new 'no code apps' and that I was going to be a fossil…

> I think about this sometimes, because while I did have a successful stint as a team lead, now i'm just a senior SWE. Things have turned out pretty well so far. I've only seen salaries go up. This is different because Covid-19 has shown to everyone that they can do their jobs remotely. And if they can do their jobs remotely, why can't an equally skilled engineer in a country with a cost of living 1/10th of the "rich…

This is not so different as one might believe. Those exact arguments about off-shoring and remote work already existed back then. Even your first argument was pretty much the same in all those other events as “has been shown that every code monkey can do their job remotely”. Turned out pretty soon that Software engineering is much more than just churning out code.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#98

Post by [deleted] »

fukpaywalls2 wrote: post #85
EMM_386 wrote: post #19

Everyone should keep in mind that water seeks its own level. And think of this on a global scale. I've been working remotely for almost a decade as a senior software engineer. Now, post-Covid, almost everyone realizes they can do the same. Salaries are going to drop in the "rich world", and it's not just because people are now fleeing places like SF/SV to lower cost of living areas. We are also beginning to compete g…

"Salaries are going to drop in the "rich world", and it's not just because people are now fleeing places like SF/SV to lower cost of living areas." People have been saying this since the 1990's

[deleted]

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#99

Post by adamors »

tjr225 wrote: post #45
notadoc wrote: post #36

Now the developed world will compete with the developing world to lower wages in the developed world. The high salaries and perks for many USA tech jobs may not last much longer. No need for companies to pay more for premium locations / perk offices. No need for companies to deal with the hassle of H1B visas. From a company perspective, why pay someone in the USA $165k/year to work from home in Trendyville when an In…

Have you worked with someone in Bangalore? No offense my Bangalore homies, but I’ve only had bad experiences. Same with Bulgaria. Weird communication issues and bad work. This was especially the case in customer facing work. Ive had better experience with people in the NL but still obvious communication issues, bad experiences with Australia and Asia. For better or for worse(I think worse) engineering culture is heav…

> obvious communication issues

Have you considered that you are the one who is a poor communicator? You wouldn't be the first:

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20161028-native-english...

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#100

Post by ramesh31 »

hogFeast wrote: post #37
closeparen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multi hour commute is, truly, insane. But that’s more a comment about our collective housing and transportation choices than something inherent to showing up at work.

Most cities used to have all the industry located in the centre. It led to huge slums (because there was insufficient supply and massive demand) and everyone leaving the city when the slums got cleared. Even if you have great transportation (Tokyo, London, New York), the commute is still pretty brutal. The only real "solution" that was ever presented to this problem was to create smaller garden cities that would have…

>Most cities used to have all the industry located in the centre. It led to huge slums (because there was insufficient supply and massive demand) and everyone leaving the city when the slums got cleared.

I had this realization recently. Our entire society and work culture is structured around the laws of thermodynamics. In the industrial age, you had a mill or a forge, or a steam engine that was running 24/7 and necessitated high concentration of the workforce purely for reasons of thermodynamic efficiency of operating said equipment. Everyone had to "gather around the fire" so to speak because having disparate smaller works would be incredibly inefficient. In a world where information work now dominates, these constraints have become meaningless and are only perpetuated via institutional inertia.

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