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In-demand tech skills are the last thing to look for in IT hires

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Re: In-demand tech skills are the last thing to look for in IT hires

#101
post #47

Our interviews for tech hires have gradually evolved into an interrogation regarding a person's attitude towards work/peers more so than their knowledge about how to do specific tech things. Teaching a willing participant how to do virtually anything with a computer is feasible in 2021. We need people who are willing to engage difficult, fast-changing things substantially more than smart-asses who think they know eve…

> Teaching a willing participant how to do virtually anything with a computer is feasible in 2021

I found that the best predictor of willingness and ability was... a STEM major from a good school.

Re: In-demand tech skills are the last thing to look for in IT hires

#102
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to echo this sentiment. The project I'm on now is the first time I've worked with a PM that gets whats going on and actually manages the product instead of just sending PMs after hours asking for some "small" feature to be squeezed into the sprint. It makes a HUGE difference, and I can honestly say I'm much less stressed out now than in previous projects.

interesting. i've cycled through some projects with and without PMs. I've not found 'good' PMs to make a huge difference compared to 'without', but definitely 'bad' PMs impact things negatively. It's hard to define what the 'bad' is, but micromanaging, forcing process where it doesn't need to be, arbitrarily enforcing rules when convenient, etc are all just negative impacts. It would be more beneficial to just not ha…

As someone else eloquently put it, "With people management, the ceiling is low, but the floor is lava."

Re: In-demand tech skills are the last thing to look for in IT hires

#103

I sometimes worry that I'm somehow becoming more and more of a jerk as my career progresses, instead of less. Maybe I'm just sick of this career.

I hate the term "jerk". It's really just not specific enough to categorize, or correct, bad behavior. I am always concerned about coming off as a narcissist or elitist. I was turned down recently after a well-executed technical interview because the company was concerned that I might be a jerk, which is actually great feedback. They based this on a "vim-mode sucks" comment I left in the notes section of online editor…

Let's play a game. Imagine you're s senior dev and interviewing another Dev today. They do well technically, but write comments in their codebase that critique your decisions (such as choice of tool, questions asked, framework used, etc). What's your thoughts on this person?

I'd not say jerk, but I would think they're not taking the process seriously. A technical test certainly isn't a place to make jokes as you don't know how they'll be perceived. Play it safe.

Anyway, your third paragraph ... It reads to me like you're passing blame on others rather than reflecting and acknowledging your choices. For example, " since one of my parents ...". No. _your_ social skills and decisions are yours. Likewise, you blame past narcissists you've worked for for not having good role models? You should know right from wrong, and making such comments during an interview is wrong.

Re: In-demand tech skills are the last thing to look for in IT hires

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to preface my thoughts with that I wish the "team sport" mentality was more common in the dev world. Unfortunately, I have to agree with blueslurpee here. I frequently join a team and find there are 1 or 2 devs who "know everything" and it is near impossible to pull the information out of their heads and into mine or someone else. This might be isolated to the areas I work in, but I do find that the "10x engin…

How much of that is because those people aren’t being team players vs them learning things differently? In my experience the people who “know everything” either wrote the code from scratch (thus understanding it at a deeper level than the quick summaries people would use to describe it) or just read.the.damn.code. This is a problem I also deal with working with junior team members who would rather ask a question abou…

> This is a problem I also deal with working with junior team members who would rather ask a question about how something works rather than read the source. Even if I do try to explain it, I can’t explain it to the fidelity and nuance encapsulated in the actual code. Nor can I explain the context as well as clicking “find references” does.

As a junior, this is a problem for me too. I don't know when it's the right moment to ask something. "When I've been stuck for an hour to half a day" seems to be a good heuristic, but it's not perfect. I don't really know what's the best option for me. If I ask later, I learn more by myself, and improve my skills in figuring out a codebase. I also let senior engineers be more productive. If I ask earlier, I'm more productive. But I take more of the senior engineer's time.

Another heuristic I tend to use is "for code stuff, try asking later, for business stuff, try asking earlier", since business stuff is often harder to figure out. We have code that describes the behavior of our product, that I can read and try to understand, but we don't have code that describes the behavior of the business.

Same dilemma when adding comments. We code in a relatively "plain" style, so "how" comments are mostly useless. "why" comments are more useful, but people tend to not really update them.

I think a way of solving partially that would be to be clear about the meta stuff. For example, I could ask if I'm asking too much or not enough questions, if my productivity seems okay. The senior engineers could also communicate about that. Even sharing how they do themselves stuff would be useful. For example "I tend to look at the code for X minutes before asking someone.". As a junior, I could multiply this time by 2, 3, 4 and do the same. Or ask the seniors about how they did things when they were new to the codebase.

To give a bit of context, we have more than 10 MLOC at work on a 30+ years old codebase, ~200 engineers and half of them are there since 3 years or less.

Re: In-demand tech skills are the last thing to look for in IT hires

#105
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of that is because those people aren’t being team players vs them learning things differently? In my experience the people who “know everything” either wrote the code from scratch (thus understanding it at a deeper level than the quick summaries people would use to describe it) or just read.the.damn.code. This is a problem I also deal with working with junior team members who would rather ask a question abou…

> This is a problem I also deal with working with junior team members who would rather ask a question about how something works rather than read the source. Even if I do try to explain it, I can’t explain it to the fidelity and nuance encapsulated in the actual code. Nor can I explain the context as well as clicking “find references” does. As a junior, this is a problem for me too. I don't know when it's the right mo…

Yeah, knowing when to ask questions is itself a skill. I didn’t mean to insinuate in my comment anything negative towards junior engineers or imply I hate when they ask questions. But I’d say knowing how to read code and understand it on your own vs recognizing when something is almost unknowable without asking someone is a hallmark of a more mature engineer. But I stand by my insinuation that people aren’t deliberately hoarding knowledge, they just learned what they know effectively (via primary sources and doing) rather than through hearsay or lectures. Or they “know how to know”, they seemingly know everything because they know how to find answers to any question.

What you say about business logic is definitely true. In general the more something is an “emergent” property or itself only a high level concept (eg “Why do we use Mesos?” “How do we implement load shedding?”) the better it is to ask. The more implementation specific (“Why won’t this compile? What does this error mean?”) the worse it is. It’s not only about the time to find something out but also how it can be found out - whether it’s a web search or codebase search away, or not. The other problem is the senior people you ask may not always know the answer of the top of their head, and in answering your question will have to answer it themselves - typically you want to avoid that too.

For one I would always be more than happy to truthfully answer a mentee’s question regarding if they are asking too much.

Re: In-demand tech skills are the last thing to look for in IT hires

#106
post #47

Our interviews for tech hires have gradually evolved into an interrogation regarding a person's attitude towards work/peers more so than their knowledge about how to do specific tech things. Teaching a willing participant how to do virtually anything with a computer is feasible in 2021. We need people who are willing to engage difficult, fast-changing things substantially more than smart-asses who think they know eve…

>We need people who are willing to engage difficult, fast-changing things substantially more than smart-asses who think they know everything coming in the door. Iny my world it means: We want full stack developer (backend+frontend) which also knows "cloud/devops", databases, UI/UX?

No. Who could learn some of those as the project/product evolves in a few years.

Re: In-demand tech skills are the last thing to look for in IT hires

#107
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't read enough about GraphQL (or even used it) to debate its relative merits, but I find it very interesting from "business architecture" point of view. For instance, assume the future of IT looks like it does today, only ramped up x10. Imagine the majority of business value is driven disparate API's/Services managed by companies or organisations, with numerous and diverse clients that can "plug in" for their…

Ugh, no. The problems of just exposing your database really come out after you try living with it. We wanted to make schema changes on the back-end, but the front-end queries were tied to it. Those queries were in apps run by different groups, with different goals and timetables, but we couldn't break them. If we had a defined API, we could be free to modify any back-end implementation details that weren't directly e…

It sounds like your main problem is that you cant get your callers prioritize making changes.

Using rest doesn mean you can stop supporting a call pattern because you feel like it. Somebody else still needs to do work before you can drop your translation layer

Re: In-demand tech skills are the last thing to look for in IT hires

#108
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh, no. The problems of just exposing your database really come out after you try living with it. We wanted to make schema changes on the back-end, but the front-end queries were tied to it. Those queries were in apps run by different groups, with different goals and timetables, but we couldn't break them. If we had a defined API, we could be free to modify any back-end implementation details that weren't directly e…

You're not exposing your database though (or at least you shouldn't be): you're exposing views . The set of views that you expose are your API. But it's not tied to your database schema than any kind of API (not less either though, if your database schema really doesn't match your API, your performances are likely to suffer sometimes, but that's true with any kind of API). (I am in no way a GraphQL evangelist btw)

AWS makes it way to easy to connect a database directly to an API, both for API gateway and app sync.

Re: In-demand tech skills are the last thing to look for in IT hires

#109

>Sure, in the ’80s, it might have been possible for one person to do it all: systems administration, database, coding, design. But in today’s world, database administrators, infrastructure engineers, coders, designers, project managers and others — whether on staff, on contract or with a vendor or service provider — must work together to execute projects quickly, securely and reliably. Tech today is a team sport. I f…

I want to preface my thoughts with that I wish the "team sport" mentality was more common in the dev world. Unfortunately, I have to agree with blueslurpee here. I frequently join a team and find there are 1 or 2 devs who "know everything" and it is near impossible to pull the information out of their heads and into mine or someone else. This might be isolated to the areas I work in, but I do find that the "10x engin…

if your team relies a lot on senior engineers knowing things, there's a problem with your technical architecture. The knowledge should be look up-able, and tied in a clear way to the functionality.

I'm one of the folks with lots of knowledge atm, and there's a corollary that the moment you teach somebody enough that they know things, they leave the team. Putting that knowledge into databases, code, and config files is much more durable, and can have new things built off of it

Re: In-demand tech skills are the last thing to look for in IT hires

#110
post #74
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Teaching a willing participant how to do virtually anything with a computer is feasible in 2021 You could become a billionaire in the coding bootcamp space if you know how to do this.

The coding bootcamp space is largely a scam in my experience. I have never seen someone go through one of those and then go on to become an employed developer. The idea that you can cram programming into someone's head in a matter of hours/days/weeks is ridiculous. It is a natural exploration that takes time to stick. You will notice I did not describe any time constraints in my post. We have no problem investing yea…

For the record, I went through a "boot camp", though it was the longest one I could find that was feasible (9 months), and I've been hired as a developer.

I think the program definitely bootstrapped me into this role. But I'm quite confident I only got it because I had a good attitude and was relatively humble, and the hiring manager had an attitude similar to yours.

Do you work for a large company?

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