I live outside of Pennsylvania Dutch country and two weeks ago driving in that area I was shocked to see many horse and buggy drivers distracted by their iPhones.
Sounds like they have better self driving tech.
Self-driving horse.
The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)
111–120 of 143 posts
Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)
#112This is happening in a lot more religions. Younger Catholics are becoming more traditional. We're even adopting our own garb. At my traditional parish, men come dressed in suits and many women veil (as is traditional when in church). Similar attitudes regarding television and video games. Many even hold to the old catholic beliefs on usury (not very popular amongst most other conservatives). It's a good reminder to be out of this world. Most social life is through the parish. It's pretty nice. Would love to meet the amish in the middle.
Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
Amish are strapped. They have lots of guns. They also have a lot of abuse that they sweep under the rug.
Citation needed. Pacifism is one of their basic tenets (actually rejection of violence is).
On domestic abuse: https://www.npr.org/2020/01/19/797804404/investigation-into-...
Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
That is a beautiful quote by Orwell, who had a knack for getting at the essence of things. But I would disagree with the notion that one society should only adopt a belief if it generalizes to the entire planet. That's not really a useful yardstick to judge feasibility in a world that requires heterogeneity and in which different groups have different pressures. Universalism is a bigger lie than pacifism. So what rol…
I’m pretty sure Orwell was talking about other people’s guns.
Of course, other people's guns serving to protect you. So really your guns, from the point of view of the larger society as a single unit, but other people's guns, from the point of view of an individual person in that society.
Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)
#115This is happening in a lot more religions. Younger Catholics are becoming more traditional. We're even adopting our own garb. At my traditional parish, men come dressed in suits and many women veil (as is traditional when in church). Similar attitudes regarding television and video games. Many even hold to the old catholic beliefs on usury (not very popular amongst most other conservatives). It's a good reminder to b…
Maybe a softball game!
Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)
#116I am always a little conflicted about articles that portray the Amish as this wise group of people. I lived close to Amish country for a while and there were lots of stories about child and spousal abuse. They seem to live to some degree outside the regular legal system so you hear less but it seems to be a pretty oppressive group.
From the article:
> In the 1960s and 1970s, 75% of Amish children would decide to become Amish adults. The most recent statistics show that’s up to 95%.
Why do you think this number continues to increase if your assumptions about the Amish are true?
Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)
#117I am always a little conflicted about articles that portray the Amish as this wise group of people. I lived close to Amish country for a while and there were lots of stories about child and spousal abuse. They seem to live to some degree outside the regular legal system so you hear less but it seems to be a pretty oppressive group.
From the article: > In the 1960s and 1970s, 75% of Amish children would decide to become Amish adults. The most recent statistics show that’s up to 95%. Why do you think this number continues to increase if your assumptions about the Amish are true?
Perhaps they are comparatively less prepared for the technophilic world.
Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, the shunning is problematic. But there is one key difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and the Amish, in this respect: The Amish encourage their teenagers to go experience the modern world, before making that commitment. Among Jehovah's Witnesses, that kind of pre-commitment behavior would lead to (reversible) soft-shunning. I think the rational play for an Amish youth would be to not commit to the religion, b…
How is shunning problematic. If they didn't shun, they would no longer be amish, or be able to preserve their culture. Perhaps we should appreciate the upside of asceticism.
Note that my comment was about comparisons between the Amish & JW flavors of shunning, rather than the Amish specifically. I believe my first paragraph was clear that I think the Amish model of shunning is the more reasonable of the two.
Let's also notice that you chose to say 'preserve their culture', whereas in the comment you replied to I was speaking of religions (and also, albeit implicitly, cults.) I'll come back to your Culture point, but I have to answer your question in the context of what I meant, not what you meant.
Religious shunning is problematic because it harms the individual. Again using Jehovah's Witnesses as an example: JW children are under intense peer pressure to make their commitment at an early age. They are strongly discouraged from building up a social network outside of the JW domain, or even to pursue higher education. So if a JW child gets baptized at 14, and then when 20+ realizes they are gay (or atheist, or buddhist), coming out as such after making that JW commitment causes them significant social, economic, & psychological harm.
But does it protect the religion? Absolutely. That's the whole point, individual-be-damned (if you'll forgive the pun.)
As to your point about Amish culture: religion & culture can be orthogonal to varying degrees. I suspect the Amish are one of the extreme examples, where religion & culture overlap inextricably. There are many aspects to their culture that are especially precious to them, and so it only makes sense that they wish to preserve it.
But still, it would be willfully myopic to not concede that the shunning harms the individual. Atleast /rumspringa/ gives their youth the ability to make a more informed decision, and even a way to avoid complete ostracism even if they explicitly choose to live as though English, and never make the commitment to be Amish. I give them credit for that accommodation, relative to the shunning that other insular religious groups do.
Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)
#119The Amish and remote indigenous tribes also had much lower rates of "the v1rus"
What is the point you're trying to make here?
Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)
#120Good article in general, except for the title. I know many people and see many people online who understand these truths. The hard part is creating a viable alternative culture that can make collective choices about technology use. It’s also worth noting that the Amish rely on the ‘English’ I.e. American legal system and military for their defense. Their way of life doesn’t stand alone outside of American society.
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