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The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

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Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#81

Post by leephillips »

rsj_hn wrote: post #77
leephillips wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“[Pacifism] is only possible to people who have money and guns between themselves and reality.” -- George Orwell In other words, you can be as “committed” to pacifism as you want, but your life and freedom, and your indulgence in your pacifist philosophy, is made possible by other people’s commitment to the defense against violence with violence, and, often, to their sacrifice.

That is a beautiful quote by Orwell, who had a knack for getting at the essence of things. But I would disagree with the notion that one society should only adopt a belief if it generalizes to the entire planet. That's not really a useful yardstick to judge feasibility in a world that requires heterogeneity and in which different groups have different pressures. Universalism is a bigger lie than pacifism. So what rol…

I’m pretty sure Orwell was talking about other people’s guns.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#82

Post by dane-pgp »

burnafter184 wrote: post #9

I feel like I have to drop "Technopoly" here, because that's promoting similar concepts. Postman calls out our bias towards adopting new technologies without any reluctance, and without consideration of the hazards of deploying it. He also espouses the view that once a technology is adopted it will self-proliferate up to the point where it becomes wholly outmoded, which at least as far as I can tell appears to be tru…

I wish Lennart Poettering had read that.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#83

Post by dahfizz »

op00to wrote: post #38
jerf wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could manage without our legal system, I'm sure, but I think there's some profundity in the military point. It does no good to create some sort of utopia if that utopia hasn't got an answer to smart bombs or paratroopers, etc. The fundamental game theory of the modern world's arms race has to be considered in any attempt to structure the perfect society.

Could they? If they were outside the legal system I would simply steal their land and build McMansions on it.

If they were outside the legal system, they could retaliate in any way they see fit. You would have to commit a trail-of-tears esque genocide to claim their land

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#84

Post by bell-cot »

zepto wrote: post #6

Good article in general, except for the title. I know many people and see many people online who understand these truths. The hard part is creating a viable alternative culture that can make collective choices about technology use. It’s also worth noting that the Amish rely on the ‘English’ I.e. American legal system and military for their defense. Their way of life doesn’t stand alone outside of American society.

The Amish are ~0.1% of America's population.

Is there any vaguely-homogenious 0.1% of America's population that could stand alone outside of American society, when you start requiring mega-scale social systems like a first-world legal system and military? I'm thinking "no".

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#85

Post by Aerroon »

zepto wrote: post #6

Good article in general, except for the title. I know many people and see many people online who understand these truths. The hard part is creating a viable alternative culture that can make collective choices about technology use. It’s also worth noting that the Amish rely on the ‘English’ I.e. American legal system and military for their defense. Their way of life doesn’t stand alone outside of American society.

But why do we need to make collective decisions about technology? Why can't I decide for myself based on what I see and think? Why is it better if somebody else decides for me?

The beauty of a society that embraces individual choice is that the individual gets to choose. You can let somebody else decide for you, but you can also go against them.

The article loses me on this point as well. Any individual can look at the effects a technology has on those around them and decide not to participate. Does that mean you're left behind? Yeah, but the Amish face the same problem anyway.

The one advantage the Amish have is that their 'eccentric' choices are seen as more valid and respected compared to an individual making those choices. But I think that's more of a failing of our modern culture not respecting individual rights as much.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#86

Post by klipt »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #39
leephillips wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“[Pacifism] is only possible to people who have money and guns between themselves and reality.” -- George Orwell In other words, you can be as “committed” to pacifism as you want, but your life and freedom, and your indulgence in your pacifist philosophy, is made possible by other people’s commitment to the defense against violence with violence, and, often, to their sacrifice.

I'm not a pacifist (combat veteran, actually) but I'll point out that you may be missing something on their side of the argument. There are some things worth dying for (for example, freedom as you point out). A pacifist has a similar mentality, but believes not taking a life is worth dying for. Both the pacifist and the non-pacifist want freedom, but the pacifist would rather surrender liberty than kill if that's wha…

The point is that if you transplanted Amish society out of the protective USA and into somewhere more violent like Central Africa, they'd probably all end up dead, or the survivors would be the ones that abandoned pacifism.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#87

Post by notsureaboutpg »

post_break wrote: post #14
h2odragon wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Committed pacifists may not feel as much need for the military.

Amish are strapped. They have lots of guns. They also have a lot of abuse that they sweep under the rug.

>They also have a lot of abuse that they sweep under the rug.

What group or idea doesn't? That's just human nature

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#88

Post by aidenn0 »

moedersmooiste wrote: post #40
throwawayboise wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are places where owning a car is a burden. I have lived in such a place and I didn't like it. There are pther places where owning a car is pretty much essential. I'd give up computers and the internet entirely before I gave up my car.

Really curious what those places are. Because for me it's the other way around. I live in a Dutch city where you can get around easily by walking, biking or public transport. And for those rare occasions I need a car, I use a car sharing service. Don't know if you live in car-dependent suburbia(most people do), but that doesn't sound appealing at all.

Back of the envelope: 99% Of the US by land area; maybe 75% by population.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#89

Post by inglor_cz »

bell-cot wrote: post #84
zepto wrote: post #6

Good article in general, except for the title. I know many people and see many people online who understand these truths. The hard part is creating a viable alternative culture that can make collective choices about technology use. It’s also worth noting that the Amish rely on the ‘English’ I.e. American legal system and military for their defense. Their way of life doesn’t stand alone outside of American society.

The Amish are ~0.1% of America's population. Is there any vaguely-homogenious 0.1% of America's population that could stand alone outside of American society, when you start requiring mega-scale social systems like a first-world legal system and military? I'm thinking "no".

Depends on the threat model. Settlers of the 19th century had a legal system and were mostly able to defend their settlements, though not to take on, say, the Japanese empire.

The Amish are probably able to put some kind of legal system together themselves, but their decided religious pacifism limits them to living under protection of others.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#90

Post by filoeleven »

masterof0 wrote: post #78
paul7986 wrote: post #2

I live outside of Pennsylvania Dutch country and two weeks ago driving in that area I was shocked to see many horse and buggy drivers distracted by their iPhones.

Do they have turn signals in their buggy? or they just use their hands to signal? I would suppose the horse knows the road, is in "auto" mode. Obviously i have no experience with horses at all.

They have turn signals, along with flashing hazard lights. And they’re quite necessary, since they’re often traveling at less than a quarter of the speed of the traffic around them.

Without a turn signal, car drivers would try to pass a buggy that has moved into the middle of the lane in order to make a left turn.

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