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Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate might have been leaked

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Re: Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate might have been leaked

#171

Post by xdennis »

malermeister wrote: post #164
sgjohnson wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starting with November 15, it will be illegal to employ unvaccinated people. They already can't enter supermarkets or access any "non-essential" services. "simple health measure", you literally need that + a form of ID to leave the home. And I cannot support that.

You need a passport to leave your country. You need a drivers license to drive a car. It's illegal to employ people without a work visa. Relax. Don't pretend this is something new or the end of the world. This is how civilization works, through society making decisions on whats acceptable and what isn't. There's all sorts of sensible restrictions already and this is another one that makes sense.

None of those are comparable.

* you can easily get a non-covid passport to leave the country * you need a driver's license to prove skill * it's illegal to enter a country illegally. Working without a visa isn't an issue because you're not allowed there to begin with.

But with covid, we've removed fundamental rights. Driving is not a right. Leaving your country and working (in your country) are rights... but not if you're a skeptic.

But about your examples, these things are now illegal but have never been:

* Australia doesn't allow you to leave the country even if you have a passport.

* In Romania you're not allowed to go outside without a mask and you're not allowed to go outside at night AT ALL if you're not vaccinated.

Even worse:

* France debated removing voting rights for non vaccinated people.

> This is how civilization works

You know which other people invoked civilization?

Re: Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate might have been leaked

#172

Post by malermeister »

xdennis wrote: post #171
malermeister wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a passport to leave your country. You need a drivers license to drive a car. It's illegal to employ people without a work visa. Relax. Don't pretend this is something new or the end of the world. This is how civilization works, through society making decisions on whats acceptable and what isn't. There's all sorts of sensible restrictions already and this is another one that makes sense.

None of those are comparable. * you can easily get a non-covid passport to leave the country * you need a driver's license to prove skill * it's illegal to enter a country illegally. Working without a visa isn't an issue because you're not allowed there to begin with. But with covid, we've removed fundamental rights. Driving is not a right. Leaving your country and working (in your country) are rights... but not if y…

> you need a driver's license to prove skill

Just like you need a vaccine certificate to prove vaccination :)

> Leaving your country and working (in your country) are rights

Says who? Who defines those rights?

> these things are now illegal but have never been: [...]

> In Romania you're not allowed to go outside without a mask and you're not allowed to go outside at night AT ALL if you're not vaccinated.

Ceausescu declared a national curfew on December 20 1989.

> Australia doesn't allow you to leave the country even if you have a passport

Australia literally was a prison colony. You know, prisons, the things where people can't leave?

Both of these "unprecedented" things have precedent. You're over-exaggerating in your hysteria.

> You know which other people invoked civilization?

Please, enlighten me.

Re: Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate might have been leaked

#173

Post by malermeister »

sgjohnson wrote: post #167
malermeister wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a passport to leave your country. You need a drivers license to drive a car. It's illegal to employ people without a work visa. Relax. Don't pretend this is something new or the end of the world. This is how civilization works, through society making decisions on whats acceptable and what isn't. There's all sorts of sensible restrictions already and this is another one that makes sense.

There's no point in reasoning with you, if you believe that someone's private health information is a blanket reason to completely ruin their livelihood. Would be lovely if you were put in a position where it's something you don't want to (or can't) do, or your own government takes away your entire livelihood. But it would be fine, because that's how civilisation works, through society making decisions on whats accep…

That "private health information" is them attempting to ruin other people's livelihoods. This isn't some personal issue like high blood pressure, this is a highly infectious disease.

Stop pretending this is some kind of principled stand, it's just people wanting to be inconsiderate assholes and other people not wanting them to be.

Re: Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate might have been leaked

#174

Post by malermeister »

SamTwardowski wrote: post #168
malermeister wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a passport to leave your country. You need a drivers license to drive a car. It's illegal to employ people without a work visa. Relax. Don't pretend this is something new or the end of the world. This is how civilization works, through society making decisions on whats acceptable and what isn't. There's all sorts of sensible restrictions already and this is another one that makes sense.

What is this "society" you speak of and when/where does it make these decisions?

Society is a group of people. In democratic societies those decisions are made through elections.

Re: Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate might have been leaked

#175

Post by sgjohnson »

malermeister wrote: post #173
sgjohnson wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no point in reasoning with you, if you believe that someone's private health information is a blanket reason to completely ruin their livelihood. Would be lovely if you were put in a position where it's something you don't want to (or can't) do, or your own government takes away your entire livelihood. But it would be fine, because that's how civilisation works, through society making decisions on whats accep…

That "private health information" is them attempting to ruin other people's livelihoods. This isn't some personal issue like high blood pressure, this is a highly infectious disease. Stop pretending this is some kind of principled stand, it's just people wanting to be inconsiderate assholes and other people not wanting them to be.

Unvaccinated people aren't runing anyone's livelihood, except for taking a bigger risk on themselves.

It is a principled stand. I'm all for vaccination and I'm vaccinated myself, I don't care who's vaccinated and who's not. Making it illegal to employ unvaccinated people is inexcuseable.

Re: Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate might have been leaked

#176

Post by sgjohnson »

malermeister wrote: post #172
xdennis wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those are comparable. * you can easily get a non-covid passport to leave the country * you need a driver's license to prove skill * it's illegal to enter a country illegally. Working without a visa isn't an issue because you're not allowed there to begin with. But with covid, we've removed fundamental rights. Driving is not a right. Leaving your country and working (in your country) are rights... but not if y…

> you need a driver's license to prove skill Just like you need a vaccine certificate to prove vaccination :) > Leaving your country and working (in your country) are rights Says who? Who defines those rights? > these things are now illegal but have never been: [...] > In Romania you're not allowed to go outside without a mask and you're not allowed to go outside at night AT ALL if you're not vaccinated. Ceausescu de…

> > Leaving your country and working (in your country) are rights

> Says who? Who defines those rights?

UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

> > Australia doesn't allow you to leave the country even if you have a passport

> Australia literally was a prison colony. You know, prisons, the things where people can't leave?

Ok, I'm now fairly confident you're just trolling.

Re: Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate might have been leaked

#177

Post by framecowbird »

For all practical everyday use, this doesn't matter. Nobody has ever even checked my ID card has the same name as in the app, let alone scanned the QR code to verify. They just glance and that gives them though plausible deniability to let me in.

Re: Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate might have been leaked

#178

Post by pfg »

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #155
malermeister wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That talking point completely ignores the dynamics of infectious disease.

So do the COVID vaccine mandates, frankly. Relatively short lived (~months) protection against infection, which itself comes at the cost of encouraging vaccine escape variants to become the dominant strain. Furthermore while protection against infection/transmission wanes incredibly quickly compared to natural immunity, the protection against severe disease/hospitalization does much less so. Therefore it is quite sil…

Reduction of infection/transmission is only one endpoint to consider. We also need to consider the overall effect on the quality of healthcare we can expect to receive in a situation where low vaccination rates causes hospitals to be overrun. This is where the line between personal health decisions on whether to get vaccinated or not and what is fair to society as a whole gets blurry.

People tend to argue "but what about $arbitrary_unhealthy_habit, we don't regulate that!" when someone mentions this, but $arbitrary_unhealthy_habit has been accounted for in terms of resources required to treat people (assuming a working healthcare system), whereas a once-in-a-century-level pandemic hasn't, so it's not a valid comparison.

Re: Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate might have been leaked

#179

Post by __blockcipher__ »

pfg wrote: post #178
__blockcipher__ wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do the COVID vaccine mandates, frankly. Relatively short lived (~months) protection against infection, which itself comes at the cost of encouraging vaccine escape variants to become the dominant strain. Furthermore while protection against infection/transmission wanes incredibly quickly compared to natural immunity, the protection against severe disease/hospitalization does much less so. Therefore it is quite sil…

Reduction of infection/transmission is only one endpoint to consider. We also need to consider the overall effect on the quality of healthcare we can expect to receive in a situation where low vaccination rates causes hospitals to be overrun. This is where the line between personal health decisions on whether to get vaccinated or not and what is fair to society as a whole gets blurry. People tend to argue "but what a…

That's a fine argument, but I've never seen a proper quantitative assessement of the risk of hospital over-run with respect to vaccination rates (or in general, frankly). The vast majority of COVID infections are mild or completely asymptomatic, so something like 90% of the hospitalization burden is being caused by 10% of infections. Mandating that some random 20-something year old get vaccinated does not move the needle (no pun intended) whatsoever.

The at-risk populations can be vaccinated. Let's get them (voluntarily) vaccinated and be done with it. Enough of these mandates which serve more to enrich giant pharmaceutical companies than they do to improve public health.

BTW, while mortality isn't the only outcome of concern, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that Pfizer's 6 month RCT - the highest quality data we have of this kind, period - showed no improvement in all-cause mortality in the 20,000+ people they vaccinated compared to the control: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v...

> During the blinded, controlled period, 15 BNT162b2 and 14 placebo recipients died; during the open-label period, 3 BNT162b2 and 2 original placebo recipients who received BNT162b2 after unblinding died. None of these deaths were considered related to BNT162b2 by investigators.

So the highest quality evidence indicates that vaccinating a similar population will make no difference in net deaths. (One possible counterargument would be to argue that transmission was unusually low during the study period, but AFAICT that's simply not the case)

--

Back to your comment:

> People tend to argue "but what about $arbitrary_unhealthy_habit, we don't regulate that!" when someone mentions this, but $arbitrary_unhealthy_habit has been accounted for in terms of resources required to treat people (assuming a working healthcare system), whereas a once-in-a-century-level pandemic hasn't, so it's not a valid comparison.

I won't make that argument, but I did want to mention that - while unrelated to mandates per se - we basically scaled down our healthcare capacity across 2020, at least in the US, due to all the furloughs and the like from the missed medical appointments, as well as (in many places) suspension of "elective" surgeries. And more relevant to the vaccines, a small but real number of healthcare workers have been or are in the process of being fired for non-compliance with the mandate, regardless of their prior infection history etc

Re: Private keys used to sign EU Digital Covid Certificate might have been leaked

#180

Post by malermeister »

sgjohnson wrote: post #175
malermeister wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That "private health information" is them attempting to ruin other people's livelihoods. This isn't some personal issue like high blood pressure, this is a highly infectious disease. Stop pretending this is some kind of principled stand, it's just people wanting to be inconsiderate assholes and other people not wanting them to be.

Unvaccinated people aren't runing anyone's livelihood, except for taking a bigger risk on themselves. It is a principled stand. I'm all for vaccination and I'm vaccinated myself, I don't care who's vaccinated and who's not. Making it illegal to employ unvaccinated people is inexcuseable.

This would be true if vaccines offered perfect 100% protection. Since they don't, individual protection is the product of the protection of everyone you interact with.

As such, unvaccinated people are a health risk to the vaccinated individual.

We don't allow all sorts of other health risks in the workplace, you can't be a drunk crane operator for example, so this is not some special new thing.

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