Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

codemanship.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–87 of 87 posts

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#81

Post by mattdeboard »

crs wrote: post #78
mattdeboard wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating the degree and the relevant knowledge gained in pursuit of the degree. They are not one in the same, and I believe that is the point most people are making. At least, that's what I believe. The skepticism directed at college education is a result of cost/benefit analysis. I would gladly take a 2-year associate's program that yielded a degree in computer science, much like nurses have an 2-year nursi…

"I'll likely drop out after getting the discrete math, algorithms and other math-intensive courses I likely would not study on my own." I think that statement right there is why degrees are still valuable. To earn your degree you will have to study subjects that an independent learner would not likely study on their own. So far in my career, the amount of math I was required to take to earn my CS degree has been very…

No, that statement is an example of why the information is valuable, not the degree. There is still a whole lot of stupid hoops people have to jump through to get a degree.

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#82

Post by evanmoran »

munin wrote: post #42
ohyes wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that different from any other job application? The job will clearly go to the boss's nephew, who is totally great at computer stuff because he plays so much WoW. (Though it is a well known fact that the best middle management comes from Eve Online). Seriously, you will generally want to look for people who are intelligent and good at abstract thinking. In my biased opinion, you should be shooting for the best…

> Currently, CS courses at top universities have very little to do with the business of actually programming, they are more based on mathematical theory. SE courses tend to look more like 'software engineering management.' Where does this meme come from? If you get a CS degree from CMU, you are going to program your ass off. You are going to write at least one of a compiler, a HTTP proxy, or an OS kernel from scratch…

I went to CMU and can confirm this. I coded a shell, filesystem and kernel just in that one OS class. To anyone who thinks this doesn't prepare you for something just because the focus was on the OS abstractions, algorithms and concurrency instead of "good coding design", you are mistaken.

Universities teach math-like computer science instead of OOP/Code style/Agile/etc because it is much harder. You can learn OOP and the rest on the job. College is meant to broaden you as a person, to teach you to think -- not teach you to do a specific skill set. Not all of them can do it, and not all students want to learn this way, but the dream is still pretty great.

Interestingly this is the opposite of what apprenticeships are for. They teach you a skill set from master to student. Perhaps these two systems have less in common then we originally thought. Should the comparison be between apprenticeships and vocational schools?

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#83

Post by delinka »

shrikant wrote: post #48
delinka wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only US society actually did provide four years of education and living expenses, then patio11 would be correct. Sure, such offers exist but only if you're poor. Or are the valedictorian. Average Joe gets no free ride for four years.

He meant a social subsidy, as opposed to monetary. Basically, you aren't too strait-jacketed as a student, the world is your oyster, you can try out lots of different things, etc. There was no mention of a 'free ride'...

That's a plausible interpretation of patio11's comment. I, however, think it's a bit of a stretch given the language of the comment. Perhaps it was his intent to say what you interpreted, but I'm inclined to disagree.

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#84

Post by eru »

gfdgfdgfd wrote: post #65
brudgers wrote: post #14

Posing Apprenticeships as a significant alternative to higher education is delusional. First because a true apprenticeship requires a contractual relationship between the apprentice and the master. That sort of contract is extremely problematic to modern business entities because it does not allow flexibility in staffing levels, requires a significant investment in training (several years), and because indentured ser…

"Posing Apprenticeships as a significant alternative to higher education is delusional." This is absolutely absurd and just shows pure ignorance of the economic realities beyond your grasp. Germany thrives off of apprenticeships. You can't find a job without having an apprenticeship under your belt in Germany. Students spend between 50% to 70% of their time at a company, while the rest is spent on traditional educati…

> You can't find a job without having an apprenticeship under your belt in Germany.

You can. E.g. you can go study at university.

Also there are vocational training programs that are done purely at a Berufsschule. Though they are seen as worse than an apprenticeship.

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#85

Post by eru »

brudgers wrote: post #69
gfdgfdgfd wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Posing Apprenticeships as a significant alternative to higher education is delusional." This is absolutely absurd and just shows pure ignorance of the economic realities beyond your grasp. Germany thrives off of apprenticeships. You can't find a job without having an apprenticeship under your belt in Germany. Students spend between 50% to 70% of their time at a company, while the rest is spent on traditional educati…

The German apprenticeship model doesn't scale well to less affluent and less homogenous countries (i.e. pretty much the rest of the world) - and it is my impression that German Hauptschule students don't apprentice in professions such as computer programming. Then again, if one accepts the idea that it is o.k. to channel children into career paths at the age of nine or ten and generally reserve the best schools for t…

Germany is successful despite the Hauptschulen, not because of it. The apprenticeships are one of the things that allow Germany to get away with its aweful schooling system.

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#86

Post by guard-of-terra »

csjohnst wrote: post #2

I'm of the opinion that a university degree is less about learning the subject matter, and more about teaching you how to learn. So a programmer who has not completed a degree may be a fantastic programmer, but one who has done a degree may have a few extra skills on top of simple programming skills. I.e. Communications skills, analytical thinking, knowing where to look for solutions, how to ask the questions that im…

You don't learn the same way like you did fifteen years ago. You don't go to a library. Instead, you google. And try. And fail, and try more, and google more.

Maybe you still run into one fundamental problem or two where you need to read something hard. But otherwise, the "how to learn" thing is more obsolete than the other things claimed.

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#87

Post by nickthedart »

gaius wrote: post #29
nickthedart wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with this. With £27k debt for tuition alone, plus other debts for living costs, in a field that changes so fast as Computer Science, you'd be paying off this debt long after much of what you'd have learned would be obsolete. Far better to go straight into work, and study part-time (if employers will take you without a degree that is, which they might if they realise that 18-yr olds can be smart and cheap). It'l…

Computer Science doesn't change quickly at all. Slightly faster than maths does, perhaps. Only the fashionable language changes quickly. I think that many people these days don't understand the difference between CS and "making websites with RoR".

I agree with that. But, a typical course contains bits that don't change e.g algorithm theory and bits that do , e.g programming skills learned from implementing algorithms, which, back in the day would have been in Pascal or C, nowadays is in Java or Python, and in future maybe some other language. So taking such a course would have 2 aims - get a good grounding in theory, and get some buzzwords on your resume / c.v too . People who don't understand the difference between CS and making RoR websites , sadly include many hiring managers, right? ;)
Post reply on HN