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Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

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Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#21
We have to stop pretending degrees are worthless. The way I see it, going to school, expedites your learning process, by exposing you to professors and your peers, it helps you learn best practices, which although generic, saves you a lot of time making same mistakes others (your professors and your peers) have made. Also it gives you the focus and urgency to finish your learning on time.

As an analogy, consider the knowledge accumulated while atending school as open source software, even if your knowledge or the OSS is generic to be fully usable for the task at hand, it almost always gives you a big headstart to get your job done, because it avoids the trivial and non-trivial pitfalls through years of maturity.

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#22
post #3
post #2

I'm of the opinion that a university degree is less about learning the subject matter, and more about teaching you how to learn. So a programmer who has not completed a degree may be a fantastic programmer, but one who has done a degree may have a few extra skills on top of simple programming skills. I.e. Communications skills, analytical thinking, knowing where to look for solutions, how to ask the questions that im…

When I completed a CS degree in '88 I remember thinking that what it was really doing was lining you up to possibly go on to do postgraduate research - which I did eventually do. If you aren't going to be doing something that is vaguely like research then I'm struggling to see the relevance of CS degrees for most development jobs. Universities are really rather splendid places for research and absolutely awful at voc…

I couldn't agree more. Universities shouldn't be for everyone - they should be for people who are in it for the learning, or for highly skilled research, not degree factories for entry level positions.

What breaks my heart in academia in the UK is seeing courses being dumbed down so that students are "happy" in their courses (i.e. not failing) so that the university gets a good response in the National Student Survey. The other thing I see is an increasing sense of entitlement - "we pay your wages so you should pass us". Going to uni is like going to the gym. You don't get fit by simply having a gym subscription - you have to work at it. Same goes for a university education. Higher fees are only going to make that sense of entitlement worse, which means for more dumbing down... and the cycle continues.

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#23

We have to stop pretending degrees are worthless. The way I see it, going to school, expedites your learning process, by exposing you to professors and your peers, it helps you learn best practices, which although generic, saves you a lot of time making same mistakes others (your professors and your peers) have made. Also it gives you the focus and urgency to finish your learning on time. As an analogy, consider the…

It is true that degrees are not inherently worthless. They can indicate a lot of prowess in an individual. The problem is that the process of attaining a degree has become too standardized and universal. Now, it is easier for someone to game the system, thereby acquiring a degree without any of the intended benefits of the process.

The meritocracy and strict requirements of more individualized approaches in open source is a good alternative (see my other replies).

Bearing these concepts in mind, I agree that it is important to maintain that a degree is not a black mark on a CV. It remains just as important to remember that a degree is also not the shining star on a CV that it once was.

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#24
I suspect there are countless CS graduates who can describe Binary Search theoretically but couldn't hand-roll a binary search implementation to save their lives

If this is the case, and I doubt that it is very often, then your CS program has failed you miserably.

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#25
So the solution to increased cost of education is apprenticeship? Is this part of the current trend at bashing higher education to make sure that we become obedient but efficient drones?

There is a lot of things broken in higher education, but saying that hiring a CS/SE graduate for a developer position is like hiring a theoretical physicist to repair a car is disingenuous at best.

Guess what, graduate students who write a compiler as part of their course, who are working on a vm for matlab, who are improving IDE auto-complete based on all sorts of algorithms, who are devising a new distributed merge algorithm and evaluating its performance through hardcore network simulation, well, they know how to program! As a bonus, they know how to apply the scientific method and be rigorous when they report a result or an improvement. They have been exposed to all sorts of things that an undergrad don't even suspect their existence.

Sure, some grad students aren't good. Sure, people who don't go to college/grad studies can end up being way better and knowing more than grad students, but don't discredit a degree because you believe that it's too theoretical. Just ask about the homeworks, the projects, and the thesis the grad student worked on.

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#26
Here's my rough criteria when selecting applicants for technology roles:

1) What have you done lately that is like what I want you to do?

2) What is your attitude like? (past references very important here)

3) Have you taken some test or certification (or can we give you one) that demonstrates skills in areas we might be concerned about?

From there, perhaps you can start learning, that is, it might be worthwhile to talk about a position. But all of that factual and procedural knowledge will be put to the test when you are inserted into our actual environment where your social skills are going to have as much to do with your value as your technical skills.

None of that involves a college degree (unless the job duties and environment mimic the college experience), and it all fits nicely into some kind of apprenticeship program. Yes, there can be a lot wrong with apprentice programs, but "apprentice program" is a very, very broad term. The trick is going to be in the setup and execution of the program.

I freely admit that we apprenticeship supporters wave our hands around a lot while yelling "apprenticeships! apprenticeships!" without providing necessary detail. But I really feel that under this rubric is where the eventual solution will lie. We need to bring education down to be as close to the actual work environment as possible. We need more rapid feedback loops in education and more specific, tailored in situ instruction. Apprenticeships do this.

Note that there is another topic -- the importance of a classic liberal education -- which I am a huge supporter of. But I think we have mixed up two concepts: things that directly translate into money for me and my family and things that make me a better overall person. Both may or may not be important to a particular person, but by mixing up the terms and lumping them all under "college education" it has confused the education argument to a terrible and unnecessary degree. This confusion is what is at the heart of the seemingly-unsolvable education discussion.

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#27
post #4

Agree absolutely. I'd long ago decided that even with the £3,000 per year fees (which Labour said they wouldn't do in their election manifesto, got an overall majority then did anyway - remember that Aaron Porter and others slamming the LibDems at the moment), the investment in a degree before a career in software just didn't seem to add up. Realistically a £25k debt against a 3 year delay in starting a career - you…

Agree with this. With £27k debt for tuition alone, plus other debts for living costs, in a field that changes so fast as Computer Science, you'd be paying off this debt long after much of what you'd have learned would be obsolete. Far better to go straight into work, and study part-time (if employers will take you without a degree that is, which they might if they realise that 18-yr olds can be smart and cheap). It'll be interesting to see what 18-yr olds do in response to these fees. Sadly I fear many may not be clued up at that age, and will study Computer Science then regret later.

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#28
A "Fachinformatiker" (for some reason translated as specialist by google translate) you can become through an apprenticeship in Germany for some time (there where predecessors to it with different names)

see http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=...

oder auf deutsch http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fachinformatiker

so it is nothing new at all.

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#29
post #4

Agree absolutely. I'd long ago decided that even with the £3,000 per year fees (which Labour said they wouldn't do in their election manifesto, got an overall majority then did anyway - remember that Aaron Porter and others slamming the LibDems at the moment), the investment in a degree before a career in software just didn't seem to add up. Realistically a £25k debt against a 3 year delay in starting a career - you…

Agree with this. With £27k debt for tuition alone, plus other debts for living costs, in a field that changes so fast as Computer Science, you'd be paying off this debt long after much of what you'd have learned would be obsolete. Far better to go straight into work, and study part-time (if employers will take you without a degree that is, which they might if they realise that 18-yr olds can be smart and cheap). It'l…

Computer Science doesn't change quickly at all. Slightly faster than maths does, perhaps. Only the fashionable language changes quickly.

I think that many people these days don't understand the difference between CS and "making websites with RoR".

Re: Apprenticeships - Employers Must Get Past Degree Snobbery

#30

We have to stop pretending degrees are worthless. The way I see it, going to school, expedites your learning process, by exposing you to professors and your peers, it helps you learn best practices, which although generic, saves you a lot of time making same mistakes others (your professors and your peers) have made. Also it gives you the focus and urgency to finish your learning on time. As an analogy, consider the…

You're conflating the degree and the relevant knowledge gained in pursuit of the degree. They are not one in the same, and I believe that is the point most people are making. At least, that's what I believe.

The skepticism directed at college education is a result of cost/benefit analysis. I would gladly take a 2-year associate's program that yielded a degree in computer science, much like nurses have an 2-year nursing degree. The four year degree I'm in pursuit of now (in my 30s)? I'll likely drop out after getting the discrete math, algorithms and other math-intensive courses I likely would not study on my own.

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