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Too many new papers may mean novel ideas rarely rack up citations

blog.pnas.org

21–30 of 241 posts

Re: Too many new papers may mean novel ideas rarely rack up citations

#21
The entire college phd system is toxic and self serving.

At my local college the guy the physic department building was named after was obsessed with some weird thing that no one understood and when he died they just mothballed all his "projects" equipment. No one had any idea what it was or what to do with it and it filled a good part of the building. He was not easy to get along with and shot down anything that he didn't like without even discussion. I'm told this is not in any way uncommon in the field.

Re: Too many new papers may mean novel ideas rarely rack up citations

#22

No, it isn't waning. There are struggles, but that doesn't mean its waning. We're having massive progress in medicine, space, cosmology, environment, biology, food, transportation. Hell, the only thing that's waning is public perception of science and that seems to be a deliberate political attack.

I think it's obviously waning if you look at any field that deals with physical world: a car from 1940 looks totally different than one from 1980's, but the one from 2020 and 1980 looks almost the same. Space rockets are same as they were in 80's, where are nuclear engines, fusion propultion, etc? Its the same for airplanes, appliances, and everything execept computers. https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/145134227466…

Cars, planes, and rockets all have optimal shapes for their environment, of course they're not going to change much once they get to that point.

Cars are still vastly different today than in the 80s in (at least) performance, efficiency, and safety.

Planes are also getting quite a bit better, although adoption of these planes is slow as most airlines want to get as much as they can out of the old fleet.[0]

SpaceX has been landing their rockets for several years now, and are about to take an even bigger step with Starship.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lapFQl6RezA

Re: Too many new papers may mean novel ideas rarely rack up citations

#23

No, it isn't waning. There are struggles, but that doesn't mean its waning. We're having massive progress in medicine, space, cosmology, environment, biology, food, transportation. Hell, the only thing that's waning is public perception of science and that seems to be a deliberate political attack.

I think it's obviously waning if you look at any field that deals with physical world: a car from 1940 looks totally different than one from 1980's, but the one from 2020 and 1980 looks almost the same. Space rockets are same as they were in 80's, where are nuclear engines, fusion propultion, etc? Its the same for airplanes, appliances, and everything execept computers. https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/145134227466…

Maybe your car hasn't changed, but your cancer care sure as hell has. The medical and biological sciences are where a lot of innovation has taken place, and the pace of technological advancement in things like DNA sequencing (as one example) is breathtaking.

Re: Too many new papers may mean novel ideas rarely rack up citations

#24

No, it isn't waning. There are struggles, but that doesn't mean its waning. We're having massive progress in medicine, space, cosmology, environment, biology, food, transportation. Hell, the only thing that's waning is public perception of science and that seems to be a deliberate political attack.

I think it's obviously waning if you look at any field that deals with physical world: a car from 1940 looks totally different than one from 1980's, but the one from 2020 and 1980 looks almost the same. Space rockets are same as they were in 80's, where are nuclear engines, fusion propultion, etc? Its the same for airplanes, appliances, and everything execept computers. https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/145134227466…

Relevant recent comment thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29000086.

Re: Too many new papers may mean novel ideas rarely rack up citations

#25
One thing obvious is the breakdown between theory and experiment in physics.

Newton's great accomplishment was discovering a link between terrestrial and extraterrestrial physics.

Today on the large scale we see it takes multiple kinds of "dark matter" to explain the rotation of galaxies, structure of galaxy clusters, and cosmology. "Dark matter" evades any attempt to detect it on Earth.

Einstein's prediction of how light was bent in gravitational fields was tested by Sir Arthur Eddington in a few years. Last year observational evidence was found for a circa-1980 theory of black hole jets. Neutrino Oscillations were detected in 1998 and have been one of the few areas where particle accelerators get non-null results; the theory for that was developed in 1957 by an Italian physicist who defected to the Soviet Union. (No Nobel Prize!)

Since the gap between theory and confirmation of the theory could span a whole career, young physicists need to survive by pleasing their elders with fashionable theories for a decade without any feedback from the physical universe.

A strange counterexample was the 1980 rise of inflationary cosmology, where the problem and solution were discovered together. (Somehow nobody was bothered by the "Horizon Problem" until then.) It was Alan Guth's answer to survival in the physics hiring drought of his time.

Re: Too many new papers may mean novel ideas rarely rack up citations

#26

No, it isn't waning. There are struggles, but that doesn't mean its waning. We're having massive progress in medicine, space, cosmology, environment, biology, food, transportation. Hell, the only thing that's waning is public perception of science and that seems to be a deliberate political attack.

I think it's obviously waning if you look at any field that deals with physical world: a car from 1940 looks totally different than one from 1980's, but the one from 2020 and 1980 looks almost the same. Space rockets are same as they were in 80's, where are nuclear engines, fusion propultion, etc? Its the same for airplanes, appliances, and everything execept computers. https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/145134227466…

There's only so many ways to arrange a car.

Re: Too many new papers may mean novel ideas rarely rack up citations

#27
There are probably 100 times more scientists doing research than in the 1920's and the technological means for research are incomparably more advanced, so in that regard we're definitely moving at a much faster pace.

Progress in fields like physics is definitely more incremental though as compared to e.g. the first half of the last century when the foundations of modern physics were laid (quantum mechanis, special and general relativity, quantum field theory, ...). Then again, there are many "small" cracks that start showing up in various theories (dark matter & dark energy being one), so I hope we'll soon discover something as groundbreaking as general relativity or quantum mechanics that explains some of them and makes the universe even more interesting.

Re: Too many new papers may mean novel ideas rarely rack up citations

#28
The same is true in software. The first people in a company or on a project have by far the biggest impact on the structure and future of the software. People who join much later focus on smaller parts, and they might even be geniuses and coding superstars, but they will (naturally) work harder for narrower reasons on a smaller part of the project, relative to the whole.

Papers in established fields naturally have narrower and more specific, i.e., smaller impact over time because most papers are fine-tuning things, asking smaller questions, and not building brand new theories or frameworks from the ground up. It’s expected that Newtonian physics is not going to be re-invented every year, right? Newton did it, and now the questions left are how gravity works at scales and speeds we can’t observe everyday on earth. Nobody will ever supplant Newton, because he was first.

I’ve watched this happen in my own field, computer graphics. The early papers that have lasting impact are the ones that were inventing the field and laying the frameworks for how to think about it. The rendering equation, the shadow map and Phong shading are ideas that wouldn’t get published today, however they were pioneering at the time. Now the questions we have are about things like what is the true microfiber surface shape of human hair strands, so that we can increase realism by 1% compared to the previous hair models.

If you compare them side by side in the context of today, increasing realism of hair shading is a more difficult question to answer than the earlier question of how to interpolate a shading normal across a triangle.

So, yes scientific progress is waning in the sense that we’re inventing fewer fields and fewer new theories. There are fewer papers that are expected to be or even trying to be foundational, because the foundations already exist. And it’s not waning in the sense that scientific output has never been higher, and today’s papers are answering harder (and more specific) questions.

Re: Too many new papers may mean novel ideas rarely rack up citations

#29
If you consider the set of all things to be learned. Some of those things will be easier to learn than others. Any intelligence setting itself to the task of learning things from this set is going to learn the easier things first. For a time, the power gained from learning early easy things may allow you to accelerate the rate of learning. But eventually you will hit a point where the things left to learn are so hard to learn, that the rate will start to decline.

This does not imply something is wrong with our approach now, or wrong with people now. It is a natural and unavoidable thing, that the rate must at some point slow. Newtonian mechanics is incredibly simple to figure out, as evidenced by multiple people working it out about as soon as the tools were there to do so. General relatively quite a bit harder and more complex. Whatever rules tie the quantum world to general relatively appears to be trickier still. Hopefully we get there some day.

Re: Too many new papers may mean novel ideas rarely rack up citations

#30

No, it isn't waning. There are struggles, but that doesn't mean its waning. We're having massive progress in medicine, space, cosmology, environment, biology, food, transportation. Hell, the only thing that's waning is public perception of science and that seems to be a deliberate political attack.

Agreed. I only see my little corner of biology, but I am continually astonished at what is being learned. Often times the pace of learning and the diversification is such that I often don't find out about significant discoveries until a couple years after they happen, and I can still bring the ideas to others years later after that and people will say "holy crap that's amazing, I can't believe I hadn't heard of that." Even scientists can't keep up outside of their area of expertise, and there will be even greater discoveries as different specialties are connected together.

Media coverage is terrible, which is just fine because the fields are changing so quickly that who knows where things will be in a few years, ans the invention of understandable lay explanations take a long time to develop.

I used to learn about, say, physics from popular media, but I don't get that any more. Presumably some things are going on in those fields.

I think there are two effects: the expanse of human knowledge is now so wide that the human mind is having trouble keeping up even compared to a few decades ago, and also the media has changed massively over the last few decades as internet advertising has gutted its funding model.

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