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My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

alecmuffett.com

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Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook leaker is explicitly arguing against this though. She cites Facebook’s push for end-to-end encryption of private messages as a problem. One doesn’t have to agree 100% with an ally.

If someone is going to Congress and lobbying against end-to-end encryption of private communications, how are they an ally?

> If someone is going to Congress and lobbying against end-to-end encryption of private communications, how are they an ally?

Because they're also lobbying for other things you care about. And those things are more likely to be passed into law than the E2E encryption pieces.

Taking a puritanical view on an issue is a high-risk high-reward gambit. Nine out of ten times, it ejects you from the room. One out of ten times, you will organize sufficiently to make it a wedge issue (e.g. the NRA on guns, NIMBYs, et cetera).

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#152
post #63
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question is what constitutes a public post? I feel like that definition is evolving. Is a WhatsApp group with 1k members spreading disinformation still a private message?

Yes, that is definitely a public post.

[deleted]

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#153
post #9
post #6

On the popularity of Haugen: I find it amusing how your government treats a whistleblower who is promoting government control over social media, vs the way your government treats a whistleblower who leaks evidence of government spying and abuse. The fact that Edward Snowden and Julian Assange are treated the way they are (and the earlier treatment of Manning) gives the US government zero credibility on press freedom,…

> I find it amusing how your government treats a whistleblower who is promoting government control over social media, vs the way your government treats a whistleblower who leaks evidence of government spying and abuse. That is because e.g. Snowden is actually a whistleblower, warning the people against the powers that be, and Haugen is an activist pushing for an agenda which aligns with what the powers that be want,…

Snowden is an activist pushing for an agenda too. Sure, one we agree with and seems ethical but it's still an agenda. Side note, when did "activist" become a dirty word?

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#154
> The world is a far less bad place than people credit. The impact of speech is still not the same as that of sticks and stones, and guns, knives, or fists must still be wielded by people, not Youtube videos. Generations have been wrongly certain that children needed legislation to keep them safe from the evils of crystal-set radios, comic books, video nasties, satanism, “dungeons & dragons”, and Kate Moss’ “heroin chic” — let alone Instagram.

This guy underestimates the power of speech, and seems to get there by cherry-picking his examples. I'm generally supportive of privacy and opposed to censorship, but there are some pretty serious and legitimate problems that exist nowadays that challenge that view (some are new, some are amplified versions of perennial problems). Hand wavy dismissals of those problems don't make a compelling argument.

Personally, my sense is the democratization of industrial-scale broadcasting technology might have made some bad tradeoffs, compared to the previous system where that technology was controlled by well-educated elites subject to social regulation by peers. That previous system certainly had its flaws, but it did slow many things down and tended to be more restrained (on average), and that was probably better.

So you might be able to avoid the need for censorship by making wide-scale broadcasting technology as hard as it used to be (or at least harder than it is now).

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are humans and like other industries, greed has crept in and we don't always make great decisions when left on our own. I feel strange having to point out that Governments are made up of people too. If it's not people that are making the good decisions, whom do we turn to?

Yes, democracy is the worst form of governance except for all of the other ones. I trust more in our government than I do in zuckerberg. Letting him continue the path that he and only he decides does not seem like a good idea.

I find it odd that you exalt democracy and the idea of limiting individual freedom in the same paragraph. Zuckerberg isn't a government unto himself and answers to shareholders and board members; one of which served as Chief of staff for the National Economic Council in the Obama administration. You seem to think that our government and large corporations are separate and isolated organizations, but the people that work within them often slip between the two. Taking Zuckerberg out of the equation will certainly not change the game.

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The optics are absolutely terrible on these issues. If I can speak for some of the folks in the rest of the world, we're laughing and shaking our heads. I can't think of a large government that doesn't protect its interests and those of the elite above others. In my experience people tend to have a blind spot for how their own government functions versus other governments.

This makes sense if your analysis is of bureaucrats and the administrative state. But it doesn't explain why individual, elected representatives wouldn't be unable to express a respect for the release of true-yet-damning information.

Why do you assume the politicians or their parties didn't already know most of what is going even if unofficially? Politicians are around for a while usually and political parties stick around even longer. They also often want to ensure they get a nice cushy post-retirement gig somewhere. Damning yourself is generally not a good move.

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#157

As cited in this article, Frances Haugen is arguing against allowing Facebook to use end-to-end encryption because she suggests Facebook should have more surveillance of private communications: https://twitter.com/AlecMuffett/status/1452309133928054799?s... A lot of people jumped to the defense of the Facebook leaker because the media so successfully framed it as a “whistleblower” situation, but that’s not really wha…

One other interesting thing to note is that the whole Facebook whisteblower campaign is being funded by Pierre Omidyar https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/20/22737042/facebook-whistl...

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#158

As cited in this article, Frances Haugen is arguing against allowing Facebook to use end-to-end encryption because she suggests Facebook should have more surveillance of private communications: https://twitter.com/AlecMuffett/status/1452309133928054799?s... A lot of people jumped to the defense of the Facebook leaker because the media so successfully framed it as a “whistleblower” situation, but that’s not really wha…

HN is a bit schizophrenic on this topic. On one hand, it seems everybody wants more freedom and less surveillance, but they give FB a hard time for not monitoring content better. Hopefully these aren't the same people expressing these contradictory points of view. I'd be curious to know what both side think the ideal social network should look like.

I think what they want is more freedom for their own opinions, and more surveillance on people they disagree with.

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#159
post #21

Just saying, at this stage, if I were Facebook and I wanted to take the pressure off, I’d be putting out little stories that make the story about the whistleblower instead of about Facebook. I’d also focus on stories that will make us disagree with her over various particulars rather than with Facebook. Facebook has a pretty simple problem: they pissed off too many people, either by taking too much of the winnings fo…

Facebook pissed off people by having power. The power to control the narrative (or take it away from others by virtue of giving yahoos in their basement, or regular people, a huge voice) is the real power, and the elite are really scared of that. I don't mean that to sound globalist/conspiracist, but it's effectively what's going on here. Mostly from the centre to far left (FYI not being political here, this has noth…

I was a bit overwhelmed by your Wall of Text (tm) at first, but I decided to check your comment history and figured, yeah okay let me dig in, and I think you made some interesting points. Here are my thoughts...

> Note the Machiavellian manner in which it is framed i.e. this is a 'Facebook' problem, when in reality, it's not Zuck out there making the rules so much as it's people on FB having a voice.

I agree that Facebook has become somewhat of a proxy topic for the Internet. It's also probably accurate that some people in power are concerned about an open press -- not FB's power specifically -- and are using the FB situation to attack the core ideas of the Internet. Somewhere deep inside of this situation however is a much more complex conversation about how the Internet should work, because if Facebook is really the best model for information flow online then we really do have a problem. As you say, there should be actually a concern that idiots in their basement making things up have more influence than researchers.

This is where I get a little uncomfortable with the framing that this situation is only "Facebook versus Traditional Media & the Powerful," because it deframes the conversation that Facebook is a monopoly over the commons which shouldn't exist. Facebook is a very opinionated system, from its focus on connecting everybody as maximally as possible to its algorithm design to its UI design to its privacy invasions. I hope - perhaps naively - that general dissatisfaction with them can lead to new openings in the market as people look for alternatives, and that it happens before any kind of regulatory intervention starts.

> Francis was a Political Agent, from day 1.

Anybody who understands media knows that Francis' leaks were heavily coordinated, for all the reasons you say. That required backing of some kind; more than she probably could provide herself (though she did apparently have some crypto money?).

I don't know what else to do with that information, and I don't really want to get distracted with that part of the debate. The things we talk about end up becoming the thing that matters. This is why I also started my original post with the point about Facebook probably dropping these stories. This gets us into the media war that's being waged between both sides rather than the relevant issues: is FB good for the world as it is right now, and if not then what would make it better?

> Moreover, it's a bit hypocritical to be talking about breaking up FB when there are likely more traditional issues of monopoly at Google and Amazon.

Those conversations are happening too. FB is just the one getting dogged the hardest right now, and (as I said) probably because they're the least popular of those companies.

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#160
post #112

There’s no honor among thieves. What this guy, and the whistleblower, and Mark Zuckerberg, and Roger McNamee, and everyone else are doing is simple — they’re all turning on each other. Don’t try to figure out who is “right” or “wrong” or whatever, or if it’s the government going after them, blah blah blah. It’s just a bunch of dirty people pointing fingers at others, trying to wash their karma. Somewhere in the vault…

I don't really care how "dirty" all of the people are, I'm going to listen to what experienced people of all opinions and motivations have to say about the issues and each other, and make up my own mind. Dismissing the underlying censorship issues ignores the consequences for billions; what happens at Facebook sets the standards for the rest of the internet and beyond.
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