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Hertz orders 100k Teslas

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Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#391

Post by chii »

jjeaff wrote: post #363
azinman2 wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if they’re so big now, why can they throw more weight around than energy companies in terms of getting rid of the fossil fuel lobby?

Because market cap is just the crazy value investors have attributed to the company. It doesn't mean the company is any bigger or smaller.

But it means their cost of capital can be lower - for example, by issuing new shares to capture some of that high market cap. Then they can expand much easier than a competitor who cannot get such good rates for new share issuance.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#393

Post by throwaway0a5e »

kjksf wrote: post #257
bonestamp2 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BMW, General Motors, Audi, and Nissan would like a word.

All those companies currently make less than 100k EVs per year. GM barely makes (made) 20k of Bolt per year. You might argue about what number constitutes scale or philosophically argue that "can" means some future, not current, ability. But if you're Hertz and want 100k cars within a year, Tesla is the only company that can deliver that.

> All those companies currently make less than 100k EVs per year.

That's because they mostly make disposable compact hatches and the demographics that buy disposable compact hatches are not the demographics that spend a premium on an EV. They buy an ICE Mitsubishi Mirage or something. Telsa makes money hand over fist because they're the only one making EVs targeted at white collar demographics who drop 30-50k on a car.

Nissan could crank out 100k Leafs/year if they felt like it. But Hertz doesn't want 100k leafs/yr because they're not trying to fill a hole in their economy hatch portfolio. They want 100k sleek fancy sedans with some brand image to go with them. And Tesla is the only people making that right now.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#394

Post by albatrosstrophy »

stmfreak wrote: post #225
Waterluvian wrote: post #163

I was very pessimistic about Tesla and confused by their stock price. But I now believe that they indeed are doing it and that we’re finally at the EV revolution. I’m not an early adopter type and the Teslas don’t excite me at all, but I’m really delighted that the market is evolving. I’m delighted that I was wrong.

Tesla’s stock price is confusing if you compare them to a car company. But they are not just a car company. They are also a car manufacturing supply chain, having brought much of their component production in house. They are also an energy company, both generation and storage, but also distribution, like gas stations. Think Exxon, BP, Chevron, ARCO, etc. They are probably a few other things, but this is the mystery o…

Exactly what so many people are missing. Unlike other car companies, Tesla run almost the whole value chain themselves, from software to hardware. In a way, they're an amalgamation of Blackberry and GM and Exxon and whatever in between. And they're also going into AI robots and home solar.

While these may be hits or misses, they underline the immense market penetration of Tesla. They're not just cars, which is why many investors project a much higher valuation for them in the coming years.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#395

Post by teorema »

jjeaff wrote: post #365
TeMPOraL wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major manufacturers still might catch up - once they really start caring. I agree with the posters elsewhere in the thread that predict the fossil fuel industries will collapse rapidly, rather than gradually - and the way I see it, major car manufacturers are still mostly trying to extract as much value now as possible from the ICE market. But once the floor falls off? They won't go gentle into that good night. I…

The new all electrics from all the big auto companies are pretty good. As long as they do well enough to keep producing them, it will be incremental improvement year after year. I think Tesla has a good lead, but there is not going to be much value difference in a car that can go 600 miles on a single charge vs 300 miles. Or 0-60 even faster than 2.5 seconds. Once the big makers get within spitting distance of a Tesl…

Yeah I sometimes think the rhetoric doesn't map onto reality:

https://www.auto123.com/en/news/best-selling-electric-cars-w...

https://www.torquenews.com/1083/these-evs-declined-sales-ame...

Tesla clearly deserves a lot of credit but I think the EV space is a lot more fluid than some Tesla proponents would have you believe.

As EV adoption increases into more markets, buyers are going to be more price conscious, and plenty of makers (most of the big companies?) already have a foot in this space. Add missteps with safety or reliability in the long term (see: defrauding the Dutch government and the public about safety) and I think things might change quickly. Tesla isn't going anywhere but the idea that Tesla is the future EV market seems dishonest, naive, or both.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#396

Post by KptMarchewa »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #348
jlmorton wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bear thesis for Tesla has been something like, "Tesla might have an innovative EV-first design, but when the major manufacturers with a century of manufacturing know-how wake up to EVs, they will drown Tesla in vehicles." I think part of what's driving the increase in Tesla's value is the realization that this thesis was wrong. Tesla is now beating all the established manufacturers at gross automotive margins, an…

The major manufacturers still might catch up - once they really start caring. I agree with the posters elsewhere in the thread that predict the fossil fuel industries will collapse rapidly, rather than gradually - and the way I see it, major car manufacturers are still mostly trying to extract as much value now as possible from the ICE market. But once the floor falls off? They won't go gentle into that good night. I…

It's only a start for them when they'll start caring. Arguably, Volkswagen has been caring for a few years and they are just starting to produce decent EVs, somewhat comparable to Tesla.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#397

Post by iggldiggl »

snek_case wrote: post #143
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla used to have "Standard" and "Low" settings for how strong the regenerative braking is, but just found an article that says they removed the low option, which would be a bummer in my opinion.

It's way more energy efficient if you can learn to drive with regenerative braking. Otherwise you're just wasting energy as heat with your brake pads.

It depends on the manufacturer, but some cars allow a coasting mode for when the throttle pedal is released and do brake blending for the brake pedal, which prioritises regen and only adds the hydraulic brakes when the regen brake force isn't enough.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#398

Post by llampx »

spookthesunset wrote: post #93
zht wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably cause it’s hard to get people to charge them before they get returned

I dunno how long it takes to fully charge an EV but it seems to me the market would eventually figure out a way to just not require retiring the car full. The first rental company that does this for free will outsell all the rest. That being said I also don’t know what the turnaround on a returned car is when on a busy lot. Minutes? Hours? Days? They gotta wash and vacuum it at minimum. My guess would be a couple hou…

I do kind of agree, but I have not much hope for a free market where a company wins by being that much better than the rest, where they could just go with the flow and charge the same fees as anyone else.

With gas cars, there's a clear cost to having an employee go out and refuel it if its not returned full. This is much less justifiable if the company can just charge the cars on-site, either quickly or slowly.

A compromise could be that if a car is returned with less than x%, where it must be charged before going out to the next customer, then charge more but if its returned with 80-100%, don't charge extra because it could go out to the next customer easily. I've rented plenty of cars without a full tank.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#399

Post by foepys »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #396
TeMPOraL wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major manufacturers still might catch up - once they really start caring. I agree with the posters elsewhere in the thread that predict the fossil fuel industries will collapse rapidly, rather than gradually - and the way I see it, major car manufacturers are still mostly trying to extract as much value now as possible from the ICE market. But once the floor falls off? They won't go gentle into that good night. I…

It's only a start for them when they'll start caring. Arguably, Volkswagen has been caring for a few years and they are just starting to produce decent EVs, somewhat comparable to Tesla.

It took VW so long because they developed a platform rather than individual cars for their dozen brands.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#400

Post by tappio »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #387
tappio wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are so dependent on fossil fuels that I'm slightly more sceptical. Over 90% of global energy is created with fossil fuels. We often get fooled about the electricity sector which is something like 1/3 renewables. But electricity is only 30% of fossil fuel consumption. Even if the share of electricity increases to 40% because of ev's and we produce 80% with renewables, we still have ~70% that requires fossil fuel pr…

That 90% is much easier to replace than you think because its mostly wasted as heat and inefficiency. Once you factor in the fossil fuels used to extract fossil fuels it all topples pretty quickly. The main source of trouble will be people ignoring the issue until it becomes urgent and not planning a smooth transition, global procrastination rather than the actual task itself.

I like your optimism. I just don't see how we can produce and transport food, electronics, and specifically windturbines, solar panels and batteries on a global scale without using massive amounts of fossil fuels.

Actually, I would love to see a the real "energy footprint" of a solar panel. Like, how much mining, transporting, manufacturing and installing the panels consumed energy, and how many days it takes for a panel to produce more energy than the entire operation used. If anyone has such a breakdown I would be really happy to see it. If the numbers are good, maybe the future is still bright.

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