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NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts

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Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts

#21
post #14

So, what is the legality of this? I've not followed much about this at all, but NSO group appears to be an Israeli company. Do they just sell, or operate the hacking software for their clients? If they operate it, is it illegal for an Israeli company to hack an American citizen (I assume it is illegal in America, but how about Israel?) Is the sale of hacking software regulated in any way?

Hacking is a crime in both Israel and the US. If either government wanted to they could pursue charges. Selling exploits is not illegal in either country AFAIK, and is in fact a booming business.

Hacking someone in Israel is the crime right? Same as in the US it’s a crime to hack someone in the US? If the US group hacks someone in Israel and the Israeli group hacks someone in the US, then they’re fine as long as they don’t vacation in the country while someone is looking to serve them with a warrant?

Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts

#22
Forget Y Combinator -- come build the next great surveillance start-up at the IDF's Unit 8200, the world's greatest hacker school and incubator for mass surveillance start-ups. With generous subsidies from US taxpayers, Unit 8200 lets you level up your surveillance game by practicing on 4.5 million Palestinian beta-testers. (Go nuts, it's not like they can sue you!) Plus, say goodbye to those moral qualms -- at 8200, you'll acquire the unshakeable conviction that you're a Good Guy fighting the Bad Guys. When you graduate, the IDF will keep the data you collected, but the skills you acquire and the friends you make are yours to keep forever.

Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts

#23

So, what is the legality of this? I've not followed much about this at all, but NSO group appears to be an Israeli company. Do they just sell, or operate the hacking software for their clients? If they operate it, is it illegal for an Israeli company to hack an American citizen (I assume it is illegal in America, but how about Israel?) Is the sale of hacking software regulated in any way?

Since this is an international issue and there's no global "legality", the effect is that locations matter a lot.

Presumably, the hacking was done by Saudi authorities from SA, using NSO-developed tools. Citizenship of the target is not very relevant, but it does matter where "the event" happened.

If the reporter was in Saudi Arabia when the hack happened, then Saudi laws apply and essentially Saudi government gets to set conditions on whether it was legal or not, and if it was forbidden by their laws, then what consequences (if any!) that should have.

If the reporter was in USA at the time, then it would be reasonable to apply US jurisdiction and try and investigate it as a crime in USA. However, Saudi Arabia can refuse to cooperate and even if USA prosecutors identify the culprits and convict them, Saudi Arabia can refuse to extradite them and choose to protect them. In essence, if it's not a random foreign criminal but someone from the actual foreign government that has harmed USA citizens in USA, it's not really a criminal matter as much as a diplomatic one, where all the other aspects of USA-Saudi relationships matter much more than any facts about the actual case; USA can choose to make a big deal out of it or ignore it, but historical precedent shows that it likely will be ignored as the Department of State considers all the other factors of Middle Eastern politics as much more important, SA could likely get away with literal murder (e.g. Khashoggi), not just some hacks.

In a similar manner, perhaps you could argue that NSO is an accomplice in that crime (I'm not saying that this would succeed - in general, arms exporters are not considered liable for whoever the purchasing country harms), but that essentially comes down to (a) whether USA prosecutors are willing to pursue this, and (b) whether Israel is willing to cooperate, as in the absence of specific treaties it would be legitimate for Israel to say "NSO did not violate our laws, we won't enforce any foreign judgements about this event"; if so, then any action would be limited to seizing whatever assets NSO has in USA (if any!) and/or trying to capture the involved people (if specific people can be identified) when they are traveling outside of Israel somewhere within the reach of USA. USA could apply diplomatic pressure to get Israel to restrict NSO, however, it doesn't seem likely that USA wants it so much to actually try and change that.

For another of your questions, sale of hacking software can be regulated by countries in whatever way each country wishes. In this case, as far as I understand, Israel treats is as essentially an equivalent of "arms export" where NSO has to obtain approval from Israel government for their foreign customers, but in this case it is not contested that NSO did have all the required approvals to sell their tools to Saudi Arabia.

Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts

#24
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government is also one of the largest customers of ICBM rockets too. And you would find that it is not an unregulated field at all. I don’t know about regulations in the field. All I know is that “US gov buys a lot of X, therefore it X is not regulated” is not a convincing argument.

The government’s ability to prevent software distribution is limited significantly by the first amendment. Selling “a tool for hacking” is fine, selling “a tool for committing crime” would be illegal, but that distinction just comes down to picking the right marketing copy. The government can however restrict the import and export of software quite broadly. This is not legal advice, obviously.

Well, and the first amendment only matters if someone gets it to court, the court accepts it (not easy to get against the federal gov’t), the evidence or the plaintiff doesn’t ‘disappear’ in the mean time, etc.

Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts

#25

So, what is the legality of this? I've not followed much about this at all, but NSO group appears to be an Israeli company. Do they just sell, or operate the hacking software for their clients? If they operate it, is it illegal for an Israeli company to hack an American citizen (I assume it is illegal in America, but how about Israel?) Is the sale of hacking software regulated in any way?

Since this is an international issue and there's no global "legality", the effect is that locations matter a lot. Presumably, the hacking was done by Saudi authorities from SA, using NSO-developed tools. Citizenship of the target is not very relevant, but it does matter where "the event" happened. If the reporter was in Saudi Arabia when the hack happened, then Saudi laws apply and essentially Saudi government gets t…

[deleted]

Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts

#26
I am but one atom in a molecule in a drop in an ocean, but I have pledged to never be involved in the hiring of any person who has had any willing association with any organization responsible for efforts similar to Pegasus, with no exceptions. I will also immediately resign any job that violates the above as well. Trends like this are not to be taken lightly - for the first time in human history, the concept of an all encompassing tyrannical dystopia is a realistic possibility, and you deceive yourself if you think that there aren’t very very powerful people that get an almost erotic thrill at this possibility. Contributing to the advancement and deployment of this technological capability is the very definition of a violation of whatever meager ethics our profession possesses, and should be taken as essentially a credible threat against literally every other living person.

Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts

#27

So how do we protect our privacy from the advance of technology? It doesn't seem possible. Just going after NSO is useless.

Hope that White Hats publish? The zero-click exploits have to be patched by Apple after they've been exposed. It all depends who finds it and when.

Really not much you can do with zero-clicks.

Don't be rich or famous I guess? Or don't use smartphones.

Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts

#28
post #22

Forget Y Combinator -- come build the next great surveillance start-up at the IDF's Unit 8200, the world's greatest hacker school and incubator for mass surveillance start-ups. With generous subsidies from US taxpayers, Unit 8200 lets you level up your surveillance game by practicing on 4.5 million Palestinian beta-testers. (Go nuts, it's not like they can sue you!) Plus, say goodbye to those moral qualms -- at 8200,…

Where do I sign up?

Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts

#29
post #13

So, what is the legality of this? I've not followed much about this at all, but NSO group appears to be an Israeli company. Do they just sell, or operate the hacking software for their clients? If they operate it, is it illegal for an Israeli company to hack an American citizen (I assume it is illegal in America, but how about Israel?) Is the sale of hacking software regulated in any way?

> (I assume it is illegal in America, but how about Israel?) This part doesn't matter much in practicality. Like it is illegal for the US gov't to spy on their citizens. It is illegal for the UK to spy on their citizens. So the NSA made a deal with the UK. They spy on us, we spy on them, and exchange the info. There, the US didn't break the law and neither did the UK. They worked around it. We live in a shadowy world…

I'm not sure if this counts as spying but in UK they are allowed to monitor people to quite a large extent if I got this right. I think refusing to decrypt your device when requested is also punishable.

https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/23/13718768/uk-surveillance...

Re: NYT journalist hacked with Pegasus after reporting on previous hacking attempts

#30
post #28
post #22

Forget Y Combinator -- come build the next great surveillance start-up at the IDF's Unit 8200, the world's greatest hacker school and incubator for mass surveillance start-ups. With generous subsidies from US taxpayers, Unit 8200 lets you level up your surveillance game by practicing on 4.5 million Palestinian beta-testers. (Go nuts, it's not like they can sue you!) Plus, say goodbye to those moral qualms -- at 8200,…

Where do I sign up?

Your local ADL office
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