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.NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#171

Post by jpgvm »

tomnipotent wrote: post #88
ethbr0 wrote: post #24

>> We underestimated the number of developers that are dependent upon this capability in their environments across scenarios, and how the CLI was being used alongside Visual Studio to drive inner loop productivity by many. That's a very odd way to say "modern developers don't use Visual Studio."

According to the Stack Overflow developer survey, Visual Studio is still the second most-used IDE by professionals. Granted, SO has a very strong .NET community so there may be some bias.

HN has a comparatively weak representation of C# and Visual Studio users (and "enterprise"/"big company" programmers as whole) so there is some inherent bias here against VS also.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#172

Post by igor_akhmetov »

moogly wrote: post #48
creato wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anything ever actually replaced VS? I've only ever used VS for hobby/side projects, and even 10 years ago it was leaps and bounds better than what I have to use for my professional day to day work now (code completion, debugger are the two things that I miss basically every day). The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's…

For many workloads (at least .NET), JetBrains Rider. For C/C++ on Windows, well, you have VS Code and also JetBrains CLion, but IMO CLion is surprisingly rougher than Rider, even though it's older. You can get stuff done though.

Note that Rider already supports C/C++ on Windows with the Rider for Unreal Engine fork. This fork is planned to get merged into mainline Rider sometime next year.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#173

Post by bmitc »

brundolf wrote: post #123
bmitc wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but desktop is dead People keep saying this, but they obviously have no idea. Desktop isn’t dead and nowhere near it. Just because web and mobile app developers think so doesn’t make it true. There are several industries in which desktop applications are a must. Any application with the needs of multiple windows automatically rules out web and mobile stacks, even if they happen to work on desktops.

Electron has full support for multiple windows, and you can even do it with a regular browser app if you get a little creative (windows can talk directly to other windows they create, and/or all windows could talk to the same server and receive push updates via websocket)

> Electron has full support for multiple windows

Can you elaborate? The last time I looked into this (including a little now) showed that, yes, you can create multiple windows, but there are not good solutions for communicating between the windows. Electron's own documentation shows two, options between local storage and Electron's IPC mechanism. From what I've read, IPC is not good for more complex multiple window apps. So one needs to use a local network communication method.

https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/faq#how-to-share-data...

If this is all the case, I would hardly consider it full support.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#174

Post by eitland »

creato wrote: post #46
oaiey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

Has anything ever actually replaced VS? I've only ever used VS for hobby/side projects, and even 10 years ago it was leaps and bounds better than what I have to use for my professional day to day work now (code completion, debugger are the two things that I miss basically every day). The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's…

> The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's just looking for similar words.

Presumably you are not using anything built on the Eclipse, Jetbrains or NetBeans with any language they support? (PHP, Java, Kotlin, Python)

Because out of the box and without any extras all these three beat Visual Studio easily once you start doing anything advanced except GUI, and NetBeans had a reasonable story to sell even there.

On refactoring the story is if not night and day then at least dusk and broad daylight.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#175

Post by jpgvm »

aforwardslash wrote: post #104
sergiotapia wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned to program with C# back in 2007. I have been following .NET and C# for more than a decade now, I look back fondly at my time with the language and people there. However, if the team is having this much internal struggle why would I ever come back? Why would I stake my business on another Oracle when there are much better alternatives?

Can you point any useful, non-esoteric language with a thriving ecosystem where the internal team doesn't have problems? I don't think so. For real drama, check the history of some well-known compilers/suites (such as the whole gcc vs egcs debacle), you'd be amazed.

All languages have had problems, some are resolved, some are not.

Ruby I think has managed to avoid very material conflicts.

Python hasn't, it's a comparative shit-show.

Java had -huge- problems in the past but was able to move past them and is stronger for it.

C# is in wait and see territory for me. I -really- love the language and tools but if I had to start a new company today I would probably go with JVM stack until this sort of stuff is sorted out. A few years from now I hope I will be saying the same about it as Java.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#176

Post by pjmlp »

oaiey wrote: post #39
fabian2k wrote: post #25

This feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputat…

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

If your world is vim and Emacs, coding like 1990's UNIX, sure.

That are endless features on VS that VSCode will never get.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#179

Post by pjmlp »

eitland wrote: post #174
creato wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anything ever actually replaced VS? I've only ever used VS for hobby/side projects, and even 10 years ago it was leaps and bounds better than what I have to use for my professional day to day work now (code completion, debugger are the two things that I miss basically every day). The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's…

> The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's just looking for similar words. Presumably you are not using anything built on the Eclipse, Jetbrains or NetBeans with any language they support? (PHP, Java, Kotlin, Python) Because out of the box and without any extras all these three beat Visual Studio easily once you start doing…

Try to polygot programming on JetBrains without extras, meaning managed / C / C++.

Similar to what is going on here with Microsoft, they refuse to support what Eclipse and Netbeans do for free, as means to sell Clion licenses, and then make you run two IDEs in parallel.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#180

Post by pjmlp »

moogly wrote: post #48
creato wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anything ever actually replaced VS? I've only ever used VS for hobby/side projects, and even 10 years ago it was leaps and bounds better than what I have to use for my professional day to day work now (code completion, debugger are the two things that I miss basically every day). The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's…

For many workloads (at least .NET), JetBrains Rider. For C/C++ on Windows, well, you have VS Code and also JetBrains CLion, but IMO CLion is surprisingly rougher than Rider, even though it's older. You can get stuff done though.

Good luck doing MFC, ATL, UWP, DirectX debugging with VSCode.
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