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Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

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Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#381
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

zoning is very easy for local busybodies to capture, since normal people don't have time to give a crap (work to do, errands to run, kids to take care of, etc.). and those busybodies with the most time (older, wealthier) want very restrictive zoning. (see also: HOA regulations). the particular issue here is defined by local zoning. Japan managed to arrest housing prices by moving zoning definition to national rather…

What does any of this have to do with zoning?

The height that containers can be stacked on sites in Long Beach outside of the Port of Long Beach are governed by the city's zoning regulations. Until today the limit was 2 containers, and all of the sites were occupied so there was literally no more capacity in the entire city to store empty containers.

Today the 2 container limit was temporarily suspended which essentially raises the limit to 6 containers - the max height at which most stackers operate. That's a 3x increase in empty container storage capacity which should give the system some wiggle room.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#382
post #298

I love how these commenters think they know something about shipping that the CEO of Flexport doesn’t (I’m referring to the person you replied to, BTW).

How do you think the CEO of flexport became CEO?

By simply saying they're an expert at shipping on hacker news comments, obviously.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are getting paid per delivery, it seems they could find a quarry or an unused airstrip to dump empties on for a small price. When Tesla needs space urgently, they put up a tent. When the military needs to start a war they manage somehow to unload their tanks. Come on, USA, we still know how to do stuff...

All places I have done real estate development require permits for putting containers on your land, and it is not a quick process to get one. At the least, you usually have to justify why you need the container space and for how long. And I cannot imagine a local zoning board wanting to go out on a limb to do something novel like approving containers just because a port is backed up.

As this is a short term problem and part of a national crisis ... just stack them up, and get them removed in the near future. Any place big enough to stack up enough containers to matter (stadium parking lot, dead airport, etc) isn't going to have neighbors that raise a huge stink immediately, and the wheels of zoning disputes take times.

Heck, budget the possible fines into your business plan for holding the containers. Delivery firms already budget for tickets from parking illegally to make deliveries. This isn't so far removed from that.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#384
post #364

The ceo of flexport rented a boat and toured the area and reported on issues people saw and reported to him. Very informative. Tweet thread @ https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1451543776992845834 Or threadreader https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1451543776992845834.html

The renting a boat thing seems like a show. Hes got experts that should already know these things from other data sources. The boat thing is for simpletons in media to understand and spin

The boat tour seemed like much more than a PR show to me. There’s a lot of power in (a) seeing things in person to add context to the understanding you’ve built remotely, and (b) talking to people on the ground who are first-hand experts on what’s working and what’s not.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy is a bad ass. If he wanted to run for President, he would win. I am really not exaggerating - I had a chance to meet him a few years back, and at that time he was the most impressive person I had talked to in person for an extended amount of time (not based on credentials or achievement, but simply based on clarity of thought and new ways of thinking). I also know that PG rates him incredibly highly. To give…

Please no more CEOs running for president. The government is not a business.

The government is not a business, but people can adapt, learn and re-purpose their skills. I think that the key, mistaken, assumption that you're making in your pushback is that general competence does not exist: people who are good at business are hyper-specialised for that environment and their skills will not carry over to governance. I think some people are really good at very general, cross-domain skills and should be put in positions to use their skills effectively.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#386
post #123
post #85

Truckers are leaving containers all over Los Angeles.[1] Allowing stacking over 2 high is only useful if you have the equipment to stack over 2 high. A place that just stacks empty containers 2 high probably only has large forklifts. The special equipment for high stacking is far more expensive, and only bought if you need it.[2] A more useful proposal is a "peel pile".[3] This is a system which assigns outgoing truc…

That's neat, but isn't this whole thing about stacking restrictions on empty containers? My understanding of what the Flexport CEO said in their twitter thread was that the best example of the problem is the haulage company that's keeping its driver count * 3 empty containers around on-chassis (which I think means on wheels), just sitting in their parking lot, because they have nowhere to put their empties, because t…

> That's neat, but isn't this whole thing about stacking restrictions on empty containers?

It's stacking restrictions for empty containers in lots that are not at the port, I believe.

> on-chassis (which I think means on wheels)

In container shipping, a chassis is basically a trailer that accepts a container and can be pulled by a semi-truck or one of the utility vehicles they've got at the port to move things around.

If a chassis comes back with an empty container on it, and the port isn't accepting empties, you've got to leave it somewhere before you can grab one of the many containers sitting at the dock that have goods waiting to be delivered. If the dock yard is full of containers, they can't unload the boats. If the can't unload the boats, they can't load outgoing cargo including outgoing empties.

Stacking empties higher, especially away from the dock may free up chassis that frees up dock space, etc, that gets things moving and then the empties can come back. But, that only works if the storage yards have the equipment to stack higher; which probably they don't all have. The thread mentions a limit on stacking empty containers, but the zoning limitation is for stacking any containers, it's just that outside of the yards at the port, you tend not to store full containers. Once you get those on a chassis, you want to get them delivered either to the final destination or a storage yard at another port or a train depot, etc. Empties are a bit different; you'd prefer to load filled containers most of the time, so it makes sense to stack some empties from time to time; also a trucking company may want to have some empties to take to an exporter, etc.

Honestly, I had thought that both chassis and empties were fungible, kind of like with rail wagons. You count what goes where and if things are uneven over time, make some transfers to bring it back, but otherwise no big deal. But the thread says otherwise.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#387
post #364

The ceo of flexport rented a boat and toured the area and reported on issues people saw and reported to him. Very informative. Tweet thread @ https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1451543776992845834 Or threadreader https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1451543776992845834.html

The renting a boat thing seems like a show. Hes got experts that should already know these things from other data sources. The boat thing is for simpletons in media to understand and spin

It is interesting to see this up close, from a human perspective. I was on a boat to Long Beach from Catalina last month, and the container ships are just everywhere. I counted 25 in view from the just right side of the boat. Very spooky.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Allowing stacking over 2 high is only useful if you have the equipment to stack over 2 high. These are empty containers that are getting unloaded and stacked in order to free up the truck and its chassis for another load. The equipment for doing that stacking/unstacking is called an Empty Container Stacker [1]. These are different from a Reach Stacker [2] which will have much less vertical reach and are also differ…

Okay, how many empty container stackers are there in LA county?

17.

and does 7,500 container moves a day usually, but not in this environment, they are doing like 60% usual capacity.

https://www.presstelegram.com/2019/09/11/sale-of-long-beach-...

How many cranes does the Port of Long Beach have? The berths at the Port of Long Beach's Pier G International Transportation Service terminal are equipped with 17 gantry cranes. Of those cranes, six have outreach of 19 containers across, seven have outreach of 16 containers across, and four have outreach of 13 containers across.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#389
post #85

Truckers are leaving containers all over Los Angeles.[1] Allowing stacking over 2 high is only useful if you have the equipment to stack over 2 high. A place that just stacks empty containers 2 high probably only has large forklifts. The special equipment for high stacking is far more expensive, and only bought if you need it.[2] A more useful proposal is a "peel pile".[3] This is a system which assigns outgoing truc…

Most of the stacks are already at 6 high https://www.tiktok.com/@stanimal18/video/7019310183545376006 . The automated storage & retrieval system cannot go higher. Peel pile would be great if the empty containers did not have to be taken to Dallas. It is questionable if this is a government failure to zone empty buffer yards out in desert as there would be even less of an incentive to return the empty containers; chan…

Those 6 high stacks are the ones at the port. From the thread, there are plenty of smaller secondary lots outside the ports where empties are being stacked, because the ports won't accept them, and there's room. The zoning based stacking limit affects those secondary yards, but not the port yards. A real question is if the secondary yards have equipment to stack higher or if they can really only go two high, because they were limited by zoning anyway.

> It would also be interesting to know if it would be feasible to make the containers able to be disassembled and multi-packed into an empty container.

Not really; everything's welded together, and if you unweld and reweld, it's not going to be as strong. Plus that's a lot of labor. There are some collapsible containers, but those tend not to have sides or a top, which is not ideal for ocean shipping.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#390

Zoning laws prevent stacking containers more than 2 high. FFS. Zoning as practiced in the US may be the most pervasive, banal evil in the country. It kills our GDP[1], is a major driver of racial inequity[2], increases wealth inequality[3], and creates car-dependency which has horrible public health impacts[4]. Yet somehow nearly no one in America is aware of this or concerned about it. I wish I understood why that i…

"Yet somehow nearly no one in America is aware of this or concerned about it. I wish I understood why that is."

I can't speak for everyone but in my case it is because I grew up in an impoverished community that had little to no zoning.

I experienced first-hand what the built environment is and the emergent behaviors of people are when there are no rules.

See, you live in a place that is nicely organized and, presumably, zoned and you think if we got rid of the zoning then everything would be just like it is now but with a few more housing units and maybe some delightful mixed light-commercial interspersed and wouldn't that be great!

In reality what you get is a welding shop next to your house. And llamas. And people disconnecting from city sewer because by god they're not paying for that when their home-built septic works just as well. And Grandma died and what do we do with her horse I know we'll keep it in the front yard.

If you had any exposure to anything other than nicely zoned locales you wouldn't romanticize the absence of rules.

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