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Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

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Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#291

Post by II2II »

md8z wrote: post #271
Zhyl wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>AFAIK the steam deck is a handheld gaming device similar to a Nintendo Switch, not a desktop PC It is essentially a fully fledged desktop PC in a handheld form factor [0]. It is identical architecturally to a desktop PC with integrated controller running Arch-based Steam OS 3.0. >When I say machine with Arch I mean a desktop/laptop with just the stock Arch on it. Which is fair, but not what I asked. [0] https://www.…

Yeah I get that, but you still probably are not going to want to run desktop apps on that thing. It doesn't have a keyboard or mouse. It looks more suited to running tablet apps. And regardless of that, my point is that the status of gaming APIs shipped by one vendor on a proprietary bundling of Linux has little to do with the status of the rest of the platform, which by the way is also woefully inadequate for shippi…

While I doubt that many people are going to want to run desktop applications on the Steam Deck, it appears to have the ability to connect a monitor and keyboard/mouse. Devices like this, Chromebooks, and many others will make Linux a more consumer facing OS in the decades to come.

I agree that the Windows API, beyond those needed for games, is a thorn in Linux's side. On the other hand, I also see the Linux desktop taking a larger percentage in the years to come. It won't really be because of growth in the Linux user base. It will be because desktops will have less of a presence outside of business use.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#292

Post by filmgirlcw »

Zhyl wrote: post #286
filmgirlcw wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll put it this way, I think that a successful Linux on the desktop would not be something a lot of the people that advocate and love Linux on the desktop would embrace. It would be a lot more like Chrome OS (and Google is writing their own kernel, which just blurs a lot of the lines even more), meaning purposefully obfuscating the Linux bits, using custom or highly-customized desktop environments, being tightly con…

Well that's definitely the answer I was looking for. Thank you for this. I will concede that I agree with your points. Nothing further to add, your honour.

Hey, thanks for the very nice back and forth. I really enjoyed the discussion!

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#293

Post by md8z »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #278
md8z wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I get that, but you still probably are not going to want to run desktop apps on that thing. It doesn't have a keyboard or mouse. It looks more suited to running tablet apps. And regardless of that, my point is that the status of gaming APIs shipped by one vendor on a proprietary bundling of Linux has little to do with the status of the rest of the platform, which by the way is also woefully inadequate for shippi…

> Linux still is not able to adequately run the majority of desktop software for Windows that people actually want to use, which is all proprietary. All of this has been getting replaced by the web over the course of twenty years. The primary exception to this is games, because they're so resource intensive and benefit from being closer to the metal. Which is why gaming APIs are significant -- AAA games don't get con…

You assume customers don't want to be tied to Windows which is not the case. Maybe you and I got sick of Windows 20-30 years ago but Microsoft's customers (the vast majority of desktop computer users) don't care. They see ads in the OS and they think "that could be our ad up there".

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#294

Post by [deleted] »

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #136
breakfastduck wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of attitude from linux users is significantly responsible for its lack of wider adoption. Who wants to learn something new when the people you need help from are going to treat you like a moron? We both know its more involved than clicking a different icon.

It's quite easy to be smug when dispensing advice to a random internet recipient behind the wall of anonymity. It's much more so when someone comes to you, in person, asking for help. I spent the better part of an hour this week helping a family friend over Zoom, trying to help her digitally sign a document. Her browser's PDF viewer couldn't render the form input boxes, so I had to help her download Adobe Acrobat Rea…

[deleted]

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#295

Post by pxc »

Zhyl wrote: post #221
filmgirlcw wrote: post #186

Disclosure: I'm a developer advocate at Microsoft with a focus on Linux, I am typing this on a laptop running Windows 11 (it also has another SSD that runs Linux), and I'm a diehard Mac user. I hate this sort of SEO-driven clickbait that is trying to inflame wars that frankly, were settled two decades ago. Use Linux. Use Windows. Use macOS. Use Chrome OS. Use OpenBSD. Use Haiku. If you're a complete masochist, use GN…

I feel like with the uptick in Linux gaming, Valve's investment in Proton, the Steam Deck, EAC/Battleye compatibility with Proton, modern desktops catching up to Windows look and feel, it's closer to being 'the year of the Linux desktop' than ever before. Sure, 'the year of the Linux desktop' is a loosely defined term that doesn't necessarily have any key metrics that you'd agree with, and it's not like any of the wo…

I think in some ways ‘the year of the Linux desktop’ is an artifact from thinking about computing and operating systems in a way that is now outdated in ways unrelated to the situation of desktop Linux.

‘The year of the Linux desktop’ was an interesting vision of the future when thinking about the way people use computers at home meant thinking about Microsoft, and when people commonly (if probably erroneously even then) thought about Microsoft's market position mainly in terms of Windows desktop licenses. But nowadays the computers we use for most things at home are phones or tablets, and web apps have displaced native applications for a ton of the most common activities in desktop computing.

The question of the year of the Linux desktop is also one that's not really asked from the position of Linux users. It's a question about market trends, or what big desktop and laptop manufacturers might be doing with desktop Linux. But for existing Linux desktop users, or even just Linux desktop dabblers, the propositions that might actually impact their decisions or quality of life aren't really interrogated directly by the question of the year of the Linux desktop as it's usually framed.

Existing and prospective Linux desktop users are mostly interested in a ‘weaker’ year of the Linux desktop than one envisioned by massive corporate or government deployments:

* can I buy hardware that I know will just work with pretty much any Linux distro at a reasonable price from more than one or two vendors that are convenient, given where I live? * when I buy peripherals or other accessories, will there be enough options at the store (physical or online) which mention Linux or bear the Tux logo that I can quickly make a choice without having to go online to consult some compatibility database? * will my employer let me use desktop Linux at the office if I prefer it for my workflow? * if I use desktop Linux at home, will I have to do a bunch of extra work to play a few casual rounds of the trendiest online multiplayer game with some friends?

and so on.

> for the first time ever I have seen people say '2022 is the year of the Linux desktop' and I think that there is actual substance to it rather than just blind naïve optimism.

I'm inclined to stay away from the phrase ‘year of the Linux desktop’ because it still recalls a lot of thinking firmly footed in the landscape of the late 90s and early aughts. But when we re-evaluate the YotLD as a proposition centered on current Linux desktop users and users who are likely to consider it in the moderate term, I think it makes sense to talk about it as something that's rapidly arriving or already here.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#296

Post by md8z »

II2II wrote: post #291
md8z wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I get that, but you still probably are not going to want to run desktop apps on that thing. It doesn't have a keyboard or mouse. It looks more suited to running tablet apps. And regardless of that, my point is that the status of gaming APIs shipped by one vendor on a proprietary bundling of Linux has little to do with the status of the rest of the platform, which by the way is also woefully inadequate for shippi…

While I doubt that many people are going to want to run desktop applications on the Steam Deck, it appears to have the ability to connect a monitor and keyboard/mouse. Devices like this, Chromebooks, and many others will make Linux a more consumer facing OS in the decades to come. I agree that the Windows API, beyond those needed for games, is a thorn in Linux's side. On the other hand, I also see the Linux desktop t…

"Devices like this, Chromebooks, and many others will make Linux a more consumer facing OS in the decades to come."

Can you see how that's the point I'm making? "Linux" is still decades off from being a viable desktop OS, and it will always be so. A new embedded device running Linux that you can technically connect a keyboard and mouse to doesn't help the general case that Windows targets, or the case of purpose-built desktop/laptops that Apple targets.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#297

Post by smoldesu »

filmgirlcw wrote: post #210
msla wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are plenty of Linux distributions with tons of telemetry and spyware (Deepin Linux is literally run by the Chinese government) Trying to "Both Sides" telemetry and spyware fails because you can use Linux without either, whereas macOS and Windows are inherently married to it and you can't use them without submitting to their respective surveillance regimes. Oddities like Deepin barely matter and can't be used…

I actually disagree. Ubuntu has a lot of telemetry on by default (unlike Deepin, they disclose this, but I'm pointing this out) and for many years, Canonical really tried to push the whole account login thing (RIP Ubuntu One). Not to mention the time Ubuntu inserted Amazon affiliate links into the search app (which to their credit, they eventually removed -- tho the Amazon app that was just an affiliate launcher didn…

Can you link me to the source code where these egregious privacy concerns are taking place? I'd love to open an issue if you're reluctant to.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#298

Post by pxc »

Zhyl wrote: post #261
filmgirlcw wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I’m not dismissing Linux though. I am dismissing the idea that an operating system not funded by a trillion dollar company can make inroads with many , many end users, yes, that’s true (Google, Microsoft, Apple are all in that category), but I’m not dismissing Linux or the massive impact it has had. The Linux kernel is one of the singularly most disruptive forces in computing of the last 30 years. I think the…

> I mean, I’m not dismissing Linux though. > But Linux on the desktop, sorry. It’s not going to happen. I mean this seems like a dismissal to me. I am specifically talking about the desktop. I don't think the impact that the Linux kernel has had on the server or mobile spaces is up for debate - as you say it's pretty massive. The issue I have is the certainty with which you can dismiss the viability of Linux desktop.…

> > I mean, I’m not dismissing Linux though.

> > But Linux on the desktop, sorry. It’s not going to happen.

> I mean this seems like a dismissal to me. I am specifically talking about the desktop. I don't think the impact that the Linux kernel has had on the server or mobile spaces is up for debate - as you say it's pretty massive.

There's never been on a ‘year of the Mac desktop’ in the way that people typically discuss a potential ‘year of the Linux desktop’, and instigating one is pretty obviously not part of Apple's strategy. Imo it's easy to imagine Linux desktops carving out a more secure place in society and ‘the market’ which doesn't involve any kind of mass adoption, meaning that it's safer to assume compatibility or other measures to accommodate desktop Linux users (from vendors, from governments, from social clubs, whatever).

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#299

Post by md8z »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #234
Zhyl wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like with the uptick in Linux gaming, Valve's investment in Proton, the Steam Deck, EAC/Battleye compatibility with Proton, modern desktops catching up to Windows look and feel, it's closer to being 'the year of the Linux desktop' than ever before. Sure, 'the year of the Linux desktop' is a loosely defined term that doesn't necessarily have any key metrics that you'd agree with, and it's not like any of the wo…

"The year of Linux on the desktop" is a meme for a specific reason. It'll take longer than a year. The claim is funny because you imagine the whole world switching to Linux, like, overnight. Which is obviously unrealistic. It's a gradual process. But last year Chromebooks outsold Macs. Chromebooks are Linux. Even if they're not "Linux Linux," there isn't much you can do with one that you can't do with most other dist…

IMO "year of the linux desktop" is a meme left over from the dot-com bubble in the early 2000s, when everyone was starting Linux companies and everyone thought theirs would be the dominant one. We know now that it's not a growth market, and most of those companies failed. You only have to watch Canonical's missteps to see how this continues even to today. (And realistically, they are the dominant one and have been for some time, not Valve or Red Hat or anyone else.) I actually heavily dislike that phrase and would suggest that people stop using it because it just reflects on the terrible type of bundle-open-source-and-get-rich-quick thinking that plagued that era, and distracts from the actual problems that need to be solved in order to ship Linux in various environments.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#300

Post by AnthonyMouse »

md8z wrote: post #293
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linux still is not able to adequately run the majority of desktop software for Windows that people actually want to use, which is all proprietary. All of this has been getting replaced by the web over the course of twenty years. The primary exception to this is games, because they're so resource intensive and benefit from being closer to the metal. Which is why gaming APIs are significant -- AAA games don't get con…

You assume customers don't want to be tied to Windows which is not the case. Maybe you and I got sick of Windows 20-30 years ago but Microsoft's customers (the vast majority of desktop computer users) don't care. They see ads in the OS and they think "that could be our ad up there".

Sure they don't care. But that means they don't care.

If you tried to sell a PC with Linux on it at Walmart in the year 2000, people would return it because it wouldn't natively run Microsoft Outlook or Starcraft.

If in a few years from now you're on webmail regardless and it can run every game on Steam, there is no reason to return it. And it costs less by the amount of a Windows license, so there is a reason to buy it.

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