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Hardened wood as a renewable alternative to steel and plastic

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Re: Hardened wood as a renewable alternative to steel and plastic

#251
post #234
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for things like plywood that use glue for the laminations...glue is the most expensive and important part of the product I've been using a lot of MDF lately, and it's interesting to think that it's just sawdust and glue. It makes me wonder: are there other fibers which could be used in a similar process which would yield better materials than MDF?

I think you just reinvented fiberglass and carbon fiber

Oh that's true! Is carbon fiber bonded by glue?

Re: Hardened wood as a renewable alternative to steel and plastic

#252
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that not depend if it’s stainless or not?

I think that's only used for structures immersed in seawater. It's not that we can't design buildings to last longer, it's that you don't want to design a building to last two centuries when you know it's probably going to be torn down in 50 years no matter what shape it's in.

Stainless steel rebar is also used for (not only seaside) bridges etc, but at 10x the cost it's not going to be in ordinary buildings.

If a building is made harder to demolish than its neighbours it's got a better chance to survive. I plan plutonium-core concrete walls for my mausoleum to prevent future generations from interfering with it.

Re: Hardened wood as a renewable alternative to steel and plastic

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making steel is how we got here. Europe was decimating her forests for charcoal. England ran out first, then turned to coal, then needed to pump water out of coal mines...

Thanks for that history. Alas, no such thing as a free lunch.

Lunch has never been free.

Good reads, if this area interests you, are Fernand Braudel Civilization and Capitalism Vol 1: The Structures of Everyday Life and Vaclav Smil Energy and Civilization: A History.

Re: Hardened wood as a renewable alternative to steel and plastic

#254
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since "table knife" means the typical dull cutlery knives (as opposed to e.g. steak or kitchen knives), I have no doubt that wood (hardened or not) can be sharpened like that.

Yeah I suspect they're comparing to cutlery knives out of the box - without any extra sharpening.

Not only, a "good" knife can be measured by its sharpness (and still the 3x sounds very little scientific) but also by the durability of its sharpness, there is a a youtube channel[0] by a guy that makes blades out of "everything" and they are actually sharp, but how much do they last (and last sharp enough) is unsaid, and in the end of the citation it seems like they propose these HW knife as a replacement for plastic cutlery.

[0] as an example only a knife made out of plastic bottle material (should be PE): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZnT31JeBTg

Re: Hardened wood as a renewable alternative to steel and plastic

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The heated compression step allows the cellulose to form hydrogen bonds with other cellulose fibers, which strengthens the wood and makes the epoxy redundant.

That's all? No additives during the compression? And nobody figured this out before?

It’s often the obvious and simple things that are overlooked, because they obviously won’t work :)

Re: Hardened wood as a renewable alternative to steel and plastic

#256
post #12

I've been intrigued for a while about various modified wood technologies (eg hardened wood, transparent wood), but I'm always disappointed because it usually ends up just being a minor support structure for a very non-wood material (generally epoxy). This one shows a compression step, so maybe it's different, but I'd really like more info on whether this is actually renewable or sustainable in any interesting sense.…

I, too, would like to see "green" engineering. How to nicely tap in biosphere / organic material to make whatever we need. One old trick was hemp plastic.. I'm not sure what was bad about it since nobody tried it again since Ford made a prototype car body with it.

The Trabant - a classic example of cheap East German engineering. Woefully crash 'un'resistant, and a body made of cotton.

Guy in my state on YouTube has one and takes it to car shows, or used to. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhpIgM6TpwA)

Re: Hardened wood as a renewable alternative to steel and plastic

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah seriously, bury the plastic really deep away from water tables and forget about it. We clearly can’t recycle most of the stuff. Couple that with moving away from a frivolous use of plastic and I think we are golden. There are a bunch of abandoned mines miles away from substantial water tables. Fill those up.

We can’t figure out how to store a minimal quantity of radioactive waste in a purpose-built salt mine dozens of miles away from any small town. I have no faith that we can find places to store megatons of plastic waste.

funny question: could we mix the nuclear waste with the plastic to make (the plastic) degrade faster?

Re: Hardened wood as a renewable alternative to steel and plastic

#258
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck finding an oil rich asteroid. Or an asteroid with lush virgin hardwood forests. As far as I know there isn't a shortage of iron ore. This hardened wood is solving a problem that we don't have yet.

I believe one of the problems it solves is that steel has a tendency to erode over time. Hence major infrastructure failures. If structural elements can be made to the same strength as steel, using HW, which will not erode at the same pace of steel, than the expected lifetime of a structure increases and that is solving a real problem.

Wood is also well known for degrading over time. Their process may prevent some or all of that, but it has yet to be shown from what I've seen.

Re: Hardened wood as a renewable alternative to steel and plastic

#259
post #249
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US can’t keep up with infrastructure maintenance as it is, let alone moving to materials with shorter lifespans and more maintenance

I don't think that the economy of wood is worse in the long run. It is quite much faster and cheaper to build with, and as long as it isn't allowed to be wet for long periods of time it also lasts indefinitely (there are wooden temples that are 1300 years old), and repairs are usually faster and easier than similar in concrete.

I'm not sure that's a good data point considering there is stone/masonry structures that old or older. Is there evidence that wood infrastructure is cheaper/more durable from a lifecycle perspective? The industry estimate for timber bridges is typically 20 years (although they may be treated to extend the life further) while 75 years or more for steel or concrete bridges. Timber/glulam also tends to deteriorate faster.

"At comparable ages and spans, smaller percentages of prestressed concrete bridges are classified "structurally deficient" than steel or timber bridges."[1]

[1]https://trid.trb.org/view/369244

Re: Hardened wood as a renewable alternative to steel and plastic

#260
post #251
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just reinvented fiberglass and carbon fiber

Oh that's true! Is carbon fiber bonded by glue?

It's bonded by epoxy just like plywood is. Technically plywood is a composite (at least from a mechanical engineering perspective).
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