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BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

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Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#151
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US doesn't make a lot of this type of battery because there is a consortium of patent-holders who charge enough to make LFP less economically viable that wasn't able to secure all the needed patents in China.

Why charge so much to license that no one will bother? Is it sunk cost thinking? Some money from licensing is better than nothing at all isn't it?

It's amazing how broken of a system it is. The theory is ok but I today's world they don't work. Change the time scale to 10 years at least. Or require active use even better

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#152
post #144
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LiFePO4 has lower energy density and it's way more durable. Both properties go against the throw-away culture. (Hand held) Tool industry thrives on selling battery packs - every single brand has its own battery lock-in to boot as well. Phones often get disposed once their battery capacity diminishes.

You're implying that there's some sort of conspiracy to keep LiFePO4 out, because it goes against "throw-away culture". If that's true, why aren't we stuck using NiCd batteries today? Surely a battery with memory effects[1] would be even better for "throw-away culture" than lithium batteries than can be arbitrarily charged/discharged for a few hundred cycles? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93cadmium_b…

You dismissed the part where the energy density/capacity/current draw is way better of Li-Ion compared to NiCd or even NiMh. Needless to say that cadmium is toxic and the use of NiCd battery is heavily restricted in the EU.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah! Now I get why you have those power requirements, ok. Indeed, you'll need a good sized battery to keep that moving for any duration. We have a 'regular' pedal bike, a Christiania older model cargo bike, it did duty for the last six years as child transportation, every day, rain or shine and still runs great (and we are not even the first owner), just basic maintenance. They're very useful. I've been toying with th…

Why motorize the front wheels? Wouldn't a larger moter in the back, similar to the one I have, be easier. Motorizing 1 wheels seems much more simple than 2 to me. Couldn't you get into a situation where one wheel is slipping or sticking compared to the other requiring different logic for current being applied to each?

Thank you for thinking along, all your points are valid and have been considered, there are fairly obvious drawbacks to doing it this way but simpler options are - alas - not on the table.

This is the bike (image ripped from an ad, not that bike but the exact same model):

http://imgs.advertentiex.nl/upload/Te-koop-prachtige-christi...

So you can see that in the back there are no options other than to either completely change the frame or to go for a single speed and neither is feasible. I could maybe expand the space between the forks in the rear so a wider hub with a motor + cassette would fit but that risks cracking the aluminum frame.

The bike has a rear hub that is geared, so there is no space there and this being a cargo bike means that an after market mid-motor can't be placed (it would run right through the middle of the main spar. That leaves the front wheels for the electric drivetrain. I'm not afraid of slipping or sticking, electric motors tend to be pretty well behaved in situations like this, the difference in speed between inner and outer wheel in a turn will be readily absorbed by the motors and discarded as heat, and they won't be overpowered to the point that they will start turning independently, each motor will run at a leisurely 125 Watts or so. The one situation where that might happen is if one wheel comes off the ground but in normal use that should never happen.

This is the kind of kit that I'm eyeing to do this conversion with:

https://www.fietsunie.nl/Babboe-Big-bakfiets-elektrisch-make...

This is a pretty common thing here in NL and rather than build the whole drive train from parts I'd go for a kit.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#154
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CATL LFP are prismatic. https://insideevs.com/news/542064/tesla-model3-lfp-battery-p...

That saves a ton of space, and if these don't have any cooling/heating requirements that savings will translate into a more compact pack which may offset some of the losses from the reduced density, as well as weight savings for coolant, coolant loops and pump.

They are definitely heated at least in the Teslas, they don't perform well enough when cold.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, why are you putting the Bosch BMS in series? Is it going to turn off unless it detects a load? I'd simply not connect it's phase wires, but it's possible the Bosch magic won't let that work. Thankfully I didn't have to spot-weld. I used cells from modem batteries, so they were already spot welded - I was able to very rapidly solder to the spot welded tabs which already had some spots to run balance wire through,…

The Bosch BMS is a pretty clever little device, it governs not only the charge discharge cycle but also keeps track of the state-of-charge, and reports the remaining capacity in % to the controller via a CANBUS link, which - annoyingly - also features as auhtorization to release the motor, using some challenge-response system that to date nobody has managed to crack (though some people spent a lot of time trying to d…

So the real danger from cells that have been deep discharged is dendritic growth as we both know.

Yes dendrites could develop later on. But the process of dendritic growth is quite slow and gradual.

Because of that, before the cells start getting too hot and threaten thermal runaway, what will happen is that the pack will run out of balance faster than the 40mA my BMS can balance. And shortly after my BMS will trip protection and I will be safe. This is actually why BMSs have a lower balance voltage - 1mA is of course not enough but they tend not to exceed 50mA so they will catch damaged cells very early removing all the risk.

As for deep discharge, you might enjoy this paper : https://www.nature.com/articles/srep30248 which also includes a short literature review.

The TL;DR is that damage is relatively limited during deep discharge even to 0v. There is plausibly possible capacity degradation but it not very different from accelerated wear and tear, though the authors did not detect any.

What is really dangerous though is discharging a battery pack to 0v - when that happens it's easy for some cells to gain a negative state of charge, which is when the nasty stuff that actually causes fires and damage happen.

Copper dissolution according to this paper in more modern batteries does not even really happen until -12% state of charge. Indeed in modern higher capacity batteries they found no detectable damage at all until -12% soc.

Because of that, I am very confident from my setup - the risk of internal short circuit is incredibly low given that I know that the cells were always in balance, and any slow-forming internal short circuit will trip the protection much before there is any fire risk.

It's very interestinf though from reading the paper that the deep discharge risks essentially disappeared at 0v from pure coincidence as capacities increased though, I'd have expected somewhat the reverse :)

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bosch BMS is a pretty clever little device, it governs not only the charge discharge cycle but also keeps track of the state-of-charge, and reports the remaining capacity in % to the controller via a CANBUS link, which - annoyingly - also features as auhtorization to release the motor, using some challenge-response system that to date nobody has managed to crack (though some people spent a lot of time trying to d…

So the real danger from cells that have been deep discharged is dendritic growth as we both know. Yes dendrites could develop later on. But the process of dendritic growth is quite slow and gradual. Because of that, before the cells start getting too hot and threaten thermal runaway, what will happen is that the pack will run out of balance faster than the 40mA my BMS can balance. And shortly after my BMS will trip p…

Interesting information. Agreed that in an unbalanced pack deep discharge is really dangerous, but, and this is where that copper in solution comes back to bite: the bulk of the fires happen during charging, which is when the copper comes out of solution, I'm not quite sure what 'modern' means in this context but all of the batteries that I've seen so far (Samsung, LG, Sony) caution in their MSDS against deep discharge both from a functional risk as well as from a safety perspective and there are a number of pretty knowledgeable people online who are on the record with their reputations at stake cautioning against this. There is some distance between 'paper in nature' versus 'people building high capacity Li-Ion packs for industrial applications with currently available materials', I'd rather follow the latter than the former when it comes to safety!

Agreed that your setup is pretty safe though, especially if you have already cycled the pack many times and see no deviation between the cells.

I've figured out the layout, it - unfortunately - won't be possible to put the pack in the frame triangle, there are too many details that will become messy, space is constrained, mounting options are limited and wiring the pack would be a nightmare with a lot of odd groupings of cells which would have a lot of potential for mistakes, so I'm going with the 'boring' option of making a rear carrier based box that will house the battery. A port at the bottom will connect a cable with a custom made plug from an old pack to the port on the bike, which can then still do double duty to charge the pack.

From a center-of-gravity perspective it's not ideal, but it does allow boosting the pack to a full 200 cells in 10S20P configuration, which should be more than enough to do my runs and have room to spare. Can't wait to get it tested :)

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#157
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would make so much money with a model 2 that they might be able to justify their valuation. I find it hard to believe that they won't eventually build it. Obviously not going to happen until factories are not at capacity with higher margin cars, but it seems likely to eventually happen.

There are affordable electric cars on the market today with better build quality than what Tesla sells for $80k. Someone will make a killing off affordable electric cars. Every indication is it will not be Tesla.

You honestly sound like a short seller or something. Tesla owns the vast majority of EV sales in US and other countries. You act as if other companies will easily catch up on major moats like battery tech/supercharging network/autopilot, but that Tesla can't improve on Build Quality?

Every indication is that it will be Tesla.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why motorize the front wheels? Wouldn't a larger moter in the back, similar to the one I have, be easier. Motorizing 1 wheels seems much more simple than 2 to me. Couldn't you get into a situation where one wheel is slipping or sticking compared to the other requiring different logic for current being applied to each?

Thank you for thinking along, all your points are valid and have been considered, there are fairly obvious drawbacks to doing it this way but simpler options are - alas - not on the table. This is the bike (image ripped from an ad, not that bike but the exact same model): http://imgs.advertentiex.nl/upload/Te-koop-prachtige-christi... So you can see that in the back there are no options other than to either completel…

If it comes down to cutting/modding the frame, I guess it is time to start looking at other options. The one thing I've noticed is that the gearing seems unnecessary while using the motor. With pedal assist, starting from a dead stop is quite simple. I'm sure that there necessity will be obvious if I ever find myself without power in the battery, so I'm guessing removing the gearing is a non-starter

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#159
post #9

Tidbit: Flixbus, the origins of FlixMobility which bought Greyhound tried the BYD C9 bus on the Mannheim - Frankfurt route in 2018-2019. They stopped because of re-occurring partially multi-day outages due to battery issues, which were LiFePo. The press coverage is vague, but explicit in mentioning battery issues. I assume that tesla did their due diligence and BYD fixed the issues by now.

A lot of issues like that are with the battery packs, not the cells. Tesla buy cells and makes their own packs.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#160

How many cars would this power: about 100k-200k cars. 10,000 megawatt hours. A single car today has ~50-100 kwh. An S 85D from 5 years ago used 85kwh, a 3 uses less than that today. How many cars is this? 10,000 mwh / 0.1 mwh = 100k cars worth of batteries. Tesla is already at 1 million cars per year run rate, at least 1/3 are from China, so 300k are using LiFePO4 (I think all their Chinese-produced cars use lifepo4)…

I assume this is mostly so they can have a relationship with another supplier and in future get offers from both BYD and CATL for more supply.
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