Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused • Hacker News Board

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#151

Post by dredmorbius » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

latexr wrote: post #59

dredmorbius wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Siri iOS has an "I'm being pulled over" keyphrase which begins recording. There'be been a few "I'm being arrested" apps, which typically trigger by holding hard buttons (volume, home, and/or power), though I'm not aware of specifics. Most of these seem to date to the OWS protests of ... how did that happen ... a decade ago: https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/help-im-getting-arrested/ Freedom of the Press Foundation off…

> Siri has an "I'm being pulled over" keyphrase which begins recording. To clarify, it’s not a Siri feature but an iOS Shortcut (which you’ll need to download or recreate) invoked with Siri[1]. The actions and key phrase are customisable. [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/17/21293996/siri-iphone-shor...

Thanks, corrected above.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#152

Post by rootusrootus » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

tomlin wrote: post #118

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

A lot of people think that standing on the constitution is a blocker for all negative possibilities. As we see with the Gabby Petito case, Brian Laundries parents did more harm to their case by pleading their constitutional rights. In other words, it makes it impossible to live in your neighbourhood or communities you frequent afterwards

There’s very little you can do when the internet mob comes for you. Staying silent was likely their least bad option.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#153

Post by giantg2 » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

I feel like it's only a matter of time until enough people get screwed by the system, see the blatant hypocrisy, realize that this is an oligarchy, and the system collapses. Maybe I'm just an optimist.

One thing that individuals do have power to do (but will be fought vehemently on) is jury nullification. Sadly, most don't know this, and/or are easily manipulated into believing the people in power.

2-10% of incarcerated individuals are completely innocent. This doesn't even include people who are convicted after having rights violated or other technicalities.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#154

Post by dnautics » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

63 wrote: post #62

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

Though that's not really the point of those things in the legal code; the point is not for you to stop a cop from doing it at the point of abuse, but for you to have a legal arm to sue the fuck out of them afterwards, or to get a pass out of jail because the cops violated procedure. Yeah, it sucks for you, but it's supposed to be a deterrent to prevent cops from abusing their power in the future.

Now, that obviously that is not super effective for other reasons (QI; courts - an agent of the state - being overly deferential and siding with the state; etc.).

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#155

Post by pdimitar » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #141

pdimitar wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. My philosophy is to always cooperate (unless they ask for something super egregious) and show myself as friendly. This immediately reduces the alarms in their heads. I even say things like "sure guys, here are my docs, here are the contents of my backpack, hope you catch the guy you are after" and smile. Very often the mere fact that you are not trouble makes them pay less attention and the whole thing ends real…

This isn't some kind of cunning hack, it's literally what they're trying to accomplish by being bullies. Society needs people to stand up to the police when they exceed their legal remit, or they will continue to exceed it. I won't blame people for choosing personal convenience over the good of society, but we should be clear that that is the choice being made.

I am 100% clear on it and it's indeed a conscious choice towards the path of the least resistance.

I don't like it anymore than you do, I am simply a realist that I can't change the reality of a lot of cops being bullies.

It's a "partial hack" only insofar as it's making them drop their guard and look to finalize the interaction quicker. I've seen these people's faces up close; they are on the edge and any non-cooperation will push them to physically abuse you or even drag you to the station. So I found a way to make them not think of me as a threat, even if two of the times when it happened I had not a minute to waste.

And sadly, when it comes to "people must stand up", it's never us. Always has to be somebody else. Sigh.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#156

Post by withinboredom » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

anonymousiam wrote: post #116

I'm a long-time EFF supporter, but I am always concerned when they (or any other organization that defends civil rights) chooses to intervene in a loser of a case like this. The defendant will likely be convicted of kidnapping, and hopefully the Supreme Court will not use some form of twisted logic to rationalize what the cops did. The correct ruling here is to force a mistrial and forbid any testimony about refusing…

It's about Due Process. It doesn't matter if you are guilty, you still have the same rights as someone who is not guilty.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#157

Post by thehappypm » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

cmpb wrote: post #101

opheliate wrote: post #11

Meanwhile, in the UK: https://www.hcsolicitors.co.uk/news/giving-the-police-your-p... If a judge authorises a notice, under RIPA, you can be served a 2 year sentence for failing to disclose your phone's passcode.

In the US that would be a (search?) warrant which also comes from the judge during a police investigation and authorizes the police to get your phone's passcode under threat of prison time. This particular case is different because the police did not get a warrant and instead just asked the guy to disclose (without a warrant), which he refused to do, then they tried to use that against the guy in court, which is a vi…

No, a search warrant does not mean you need to hand over passwords.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#158

Post by nerdponx » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

codezero wrote: post #137

colinmhayes wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rikers is a jail, not a prison. Jails are meant to hold people who have not yet completed their trial. Once you're convicted you get sent to prison.

Exactly the point. The police can waste your time. Those people can’t go to work and will likely lose their job because they are being jammed up by police.

It's not just time.

Rikers is as much of a violent, torturous, psychologically-toxic shithole as any prison, and people (often teenagers) can spend years stuck there [0].

[0]: https://revealnews.org/article-legacy/for-teens-at-rikers-is...

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#159

Post by pdimitar » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:47 PM UTC

gkop wrote: post #148

pdimitar wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, if I travel with a company laptop and I am asked to unlock it I'll outright refuse and cite that I can and will be sued by my employer if I unlock it, and will direct the airport security to my employer's legal team. I don't want to open myself up for litigation so I'll definitely put up a fight in this case.

Would you say more about your employer suing you if you cave under pressure and unlock the laptop? That sounds to me like your employer is asking a lot of you! Or, if you are bluffing to security about the suing, why are you putting your personal safety on the line to protect your employer?

It's a weighing of risks, really. I don't value neither airport security or my employer's secrets as highly as my own safety but will weigh in the risk as the situation develops.

If I am asked to accompany them to the dark room I'll just give up, unlock the laptop, hand it to them and then quietly inform my employer's legal team that a potential security breach has occurred (after I get safely to a hotel).

I really don't want to spend time in jail because of a nervous cop.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#160

Post by dTal » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:47 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #104

copo233 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes even less sense, somehow.

Conservatives tend to think in terms of structure and order. That is why you will hear them babble on about things being "Unconstitutional!" all the time as if that has any meaning in the real world. Liberals tend to think they can manifest reality just by saying the right thing. This causes them to be very vigilant about the words we use to describe things and they also think things like putting up a gun free zone s…

>When a cop is beating a liberal to death with a stick, the liberal understands the cop is exercising his power and will get away with it. When a cop is beating a conservative to death with a stick the conservative will righteously complain about how that's illegal and I want this bad apple's badge number.

So, conservatives are the starry-eyed idealists and the liberals are the hard-nosed realists? That's an intriguing reversal of the usual framing.