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Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

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Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#141

Post by dTal »

pdimitar wrote: post #70
63 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

Yep. My philosophy is to always cooperate (unless they ask for something super egregious) and show myself as friendly. This immediately reduces the alarms in their heads. I even say things like "sure guys, here are my docs, here are the contents of my backpack, hope you catch the guy you are after" and smile. Very often the mere fact that you are not trouble makes them pay less attention and the whole thing ends real…

This isn't some kind of cunning hack, it's literally what they're trying to accomplish by being bullies.

Society needs people to stand up to the police when they exceed their legal remit, or they will continue to exceed it. I won't blame people for choosing personal convenience over the good of society, but we should be clear that that is the choice being made.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#142

Post by colinmhayes »

Zak wrote: post #16
redis_mlc wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far it has held up in the court of appeals, but there's another hearing upcoming. Note that a defendant is in a much stronger position if they have maintained complete silence even before the password is requested - you can't just clam up halfway through a conversation.

You most certainly can clam up halfway through a conversation, and the fact that you did cannot be used against you in a criminal trial. It's a common (but not mandatory) part of the Miranda warning that a person being questioned in custody can stop answering questions at any time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning

This isn't how the rulings involving phone passwords has worked out. The supreme court has not ruled on this question so each state has its own interpretation of the fifth amendment here. Some states have found that the fifth amendment provides no protection for passwords, others have found that the fifth amendment does protect passwords, but only if you have refused to give any evidence from the locked device. Once you give some evidence from the device I believe every state says you can be forced to give up your password.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#143

Post by pdimitar »

rootusrootus wrote: post #138
pdimitar wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. A better reply is: "I am here to state an observation and not to prove anything to anyone since it's not a court room. Believe me if you want, I'll not stick around to find out".

That amounts to taking a dump in the middle of the conversation and walking away. If you aren’t here to participate in the discussion why say anything at all?

I said it, the other guy says he doesn't believe me. What discussion? That's the discussion stopper, not what I said.

I can't prove anything except say it. And it's your choice whether to believe it.

What's unclear?

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#144

Post by letitbeirie »

shwoopdiwoop wrote: post #107
pdimitar wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. My philosophy is to always cooperate (unless they ask for something super egregious) and show myself as friendly. This immediately reduces the alarms in their heads. I even say things like "sure guys, here are my docs, here are the contents of my backpack, hope you catch the guy you are after" and smile. Very often the mere fact that you are not trouble makes them pay less attention and the whole thing ends real…

This is terrible advice.

Depends on the context.

If you're not on their radar, being polite and forgettable is a great way to stay that way.

If you're already in custody, anything you say while being friendly can and will be used against you in court, so your vocabulary should probably be limited to the word "lawyer."

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#145

Post by rootusrootus »

codezero wrote: post #100
kspacewalk2 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Sorry, I don't buy that this happens with any kind of frequency in the 21st century United States, such that a person could reasonably expect this to happen to them. Do you have more than ambiguous innuendo to back up this claim?

85% of the people in Rikers haven’t been convicted of anything.

That seems expected, it’s a jail not a prison. At any given time a lot of the people there are in the midst of a trial.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#146

Post by atdrummond »

Klathmon wrote: post #132
35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I listened to a legal symposium once that was held by lawyers who specialize in self defense/use of force. Think "I have a concealed weapon and I killed someone in self defense - now what?" They all agreed that their clients worry far too much about being arrested. Their legal advice was unanimous: you just took someone's life, you are absolutely going to be arrested, nothing you could possibly say will change that.…

>A night or two in jail won't change your life A night or two in jail absolutely can change your life. A night or two in jail means not being able to pick your kid up from daycare or take care of pets/family, A night or two in jail means missing work without any notice. Hope your boss is understanding, because if you lose your job you're on your way to losing everything. A night or two in jail means you now need enou…

My takeaway from the post you were replying to is that these individuals - the ones who have not just lawyers but self-defense lawyers, prepared in advance - are the type of persons who can weather the storms you describe that would be absolutely debilitating for the typical person/family.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#148

Post by gkop »

pdimitar wrote: post #125
thehappypm wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is and it isn't, there are circumstances where the best outcome is to be helpful and compliant, and other circumstances where you'll want to protect yourself from search.

Absolutely, if I travel with a company laptop and I am asked to unlock it I'll outright refuse and cite that I can and will be sued by my employer if I unlock it, and will direct the airport security to my employer's legal team. I don't want to open myself up for litigation so I'll definitely put up a fight in this case.

Would you say more about your employer suing you if you cave under pressure and unlock the laptop? That sounds to me like your employer is asking a lot of you! Or, if you are bluffing to security about the suing, why are you putting your personal safety on the line to protect your employer?

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#149

Post by colinmhayes »

codezero wrote: post #137
colinmhayes wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rikers is a jail, not a prison. Jails are meant to hold people who have not yet completed their trial. Once you're convicted you get sent to prison.

Exactly the point. The police can waste your time. Those people can’t go to work and will likely lose their job because they are being jammed up by police.

Yea, the bail situation in this country is fucked.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#150

Post by delecti »

gwbas1c wrote: post #52
LinuxBender wrote: post #20

Sortof off topic question. I've never owned a smart phone but might get one soon assuming I can find a decent one that will run grapheneOS. Is there an app that can be given permission to intercept the unlock code and upon receiving the panic/under duress code, discretely put the phone into a "parental controls" configuration that sandboxes all your data and only presents the storage you want the law enforcement chil…

I think an easier approach is not to do anything incriminating on your phone.

It's generally advised to not talk to the police because anything can potentially be incriminating. Given that, your advice effectively becomes "don't have/use a phone in the first place," and I don't fault someone who doesn't want to settle for that.
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