Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

eff.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 615 posts

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#71

Post by [deleted] »

dredmorbius wrote: post #38
LinuxBender wrote: post #20

Sortof off topic question. I've never owned a smart phone but might get one soon assuming I can find a decent one that will run grapheneOS. Is there an app that can be given permission to intercept the unlock code and upon receiving the panic/under duress code, discretely put the phone into a "parental controls" configuration that sandboxes all your data and only presents the storage you want the law enforcement chil…

Siri iOS has an "I'm being pulled over" keyphrase which begins recording. There'be been a few "I'm being arrested" apps, which typically trigger by holding hard buttons (volume, home, and/or power), though I'm not aware of specifics. Most of these seem to date to the OWS protests of ... how did that happen ... a decade ago: https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/help-im-getting-arrested/ Freedom of the Press Foundation off…

[deleted]

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#72

Post by pasabagi »

rob74 wrote: post #60
jsilence wrote: post #55

If the government has my fingerprints, would they be allowed to use them to unlock the confiscated phone? Might explain why in Germany s of lately you have your fingerprints taken when getting your personal ID (Personalausweis).

I'd be very surprised if evidence obtained this way would be admissible at a trial. But if you want to be safe, use another finger for your Id card than for your phone...

It is. Germany has no 'fruit of the poison tree' principle. Police can use whatever no matter how it was obtained.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#73

Post by breakingcups »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #68
63 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

[flagged]

I don't think I understand what you're trying to say. The colons aren't making it clear. What do you mean?

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#74

Post by stevespang »

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

Yes, just examine the concept of "qualified immunity", more B.S. jargon for "we can kill you and get away with it", which is just more evidence we live in a gestapo police state . . . .

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#76

Post by oogali »

63 wrote: post #62
pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

A former colleague summarized this as "you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride".

Meaning, your exit via means of reciting legal code matters in a court room or in front of a prosecutor, but it won't get you out of the ride to the police station -- or in this case: a trip to the coercion back room.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#77

Post by LinuxBender »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #67
LinuxBender wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly true in court at least, but I think the end user should have the option to make this decision. Maybe give them a disclaimer that says In bold red text .. "Depending on your jurisdiction you may have legal problems using this feature! Research this and consult an attorney before enabling. You have been warned". In the US this would only apply in courts. AFAIK this would not be the case when interacting with t…

Even if the feature warned users, Apple and Google would not be off the hook. It’s entirely possible a prosecutor will go after them for implementing a feature designed to evade police and destroy evidence. Us programmers tend to thing the law is black and white and a legal disclaimer solves all issues, but it’s not. The law can be (and is) a gray area determined by the courts on an individual basis. Judges don’t loo…

I would actually prefer that Apple and Google do not implement this. Even if they accept the risk, it would create an arms race between the phone developers and forensics developers assuming they don't put a back door in this feature. I would prefer this only be implemented by the alternate phone OS developers or by someone maintaining an open source add-on.

I should also add this is only a legal risk if you are using this against the courts AND select the options to wipe data. AFAIK you can disavow knowledge to cops all day long in most first world countries with little risk. Again, not a lawyer but it seems this is true based on cases I have followed. And this feature would not just be to protect from police. It could be to protect from phone thieves getting sensitive financial information which arguably should not be on the phone. It could also be used to alert people if people and/or their kids are being robbed. Actually the more I think about it, this feature could save the lives of some police officers. Some people may in poor judgement have data that could carry a longer sentence than killing a police officer. I recall a case where a professional thief killed all the guards because the punishment for the information they were stealing was more detrimental legally than homicide, but this is a bit of a rare tangent.

I also have to factor in that some locations there is a very thin gray line between law enforcement and outlaws. Maybe pushing the system to follow due process and maybe even prevent cops from planting data on the phone could be useful. That could be a logging feature of the sandbox. What data was added after duress was activated

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#78

Post by kspacewalk2 »

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

>Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards.

Sorry, I don't buy that this happens with any kind of frequency in the 21st century United States, such that a person could reasonably expect this to happen to them. Do you have more than ambiguous innuendo to back up this claim?

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#80

Post by legutierr »

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

> I've known two former colleagues who were "convinced" to do so in the airport's back room; the one where problematic passengers are held for 8-24h.

What country(ies)?

Post reply on HN