Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

pushevs.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 180 posts

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#41

Post by Syonyk »

Jensson wrote: post #39
whimsicalism wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has a lot to do with jingoism/nationalism, albeit maybe not race explicitly (although I doubt the cultural rift between the two does much to help). I rarely see the same level of outrage against Saudi Arabian oil (yes, yes, a low proportion of gas in the US nowabouts) or things produced in many other circumstances that are at least as "unfree" as they are in China. Because of that, I find it difficult to believe t…

Saudi Arabia selling oil is just them selling natural resources. China selling high tech better than anyone else in the world is signs of the world order changing. Edit: Personally I am excited that we can potentially have another billion educated people to help solve the worlds problems. I see more and more good things come out of China, so I am optimistic over the potential to trade ideas and not just cheap labor.

Careful there. They might decide that the problem that the world needs solved is that China and the CCP don't rule all of it. Yet.

China has been moving in a very, very nationalistic direction lately.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#42

Post by [deleted] »

pmorici wrote: post #20
anonymousiam wrote: post #17

Tesla said that they will use LFP batteries from now on in all "standard range" cars. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batte... As I understand it, the "standard range" cars are no different from the long range cars, other than a software flag that allows a greater battery discharge. So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations if they ever actually build any of those. https://ww…

"So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations if they ever actually build any of those." They aren't planning do battery swapping. None of their recent designs have any provisions for it. That was something they considered early on and then abandon once they advanced their fast charging technology.

[deleted]

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#43

Post by tuatoru »

DavidPiper wrote: post #38
CamperBob2 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That interpretation might be a bit inflammatory. But at a minimum, it's certainly the new "fyi this is a JAPANESE business." How'd that work out for the generation of manufacturers that used it as a veiled insult?

As a young(ish) person, I've definitely heard "fyi this is a CHINESE business", but haven't really heard "fyi this is a JEWISH business" or "fyi this is a JAPANESE business". Are there communicable/generalised messages or stereotypes people are trying to invoke with this sort of thing, or have they always just been intended as slander?

I can't speak to "Jewish", but I can to "Japanese".

It relates to Japan's industrial rise after WWII.

In the 1950s, "Japanese" was synonymous with "shoddy and cheap". The stereotypical import from Japan was an HB pencil.

In the 1980s, "Japanese" became synonymous with "cheap and reliable" -- think Toyota vs General Motors. American manufacturers responded with racism rather than fixing their problems.

There was hysteria in the mainstream media that Japan was going to overtake the US to become the biggest economy in the world. People who see the world in zero-sum terms made idiots of themselves.*

In the 2010s, "Japanese" seems to have become synonymous with "advanced and very high quality". "Japanese capacitors" on computer motherboards, for instance.

And now that the Chinese are here, we've always been best buddies with Japan.

To some extent this same sequence is happening with South Korea and Taiwan, and possibly Israel.

* There's a famous essay, "The Paranoid Style in American Politics" which goes some way to describing this zero-sum, win-or-lose thinking in politicians. The first few paragraphs read like they could have been written this year.

https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-am...

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#44

Post by elihu »

sudosysgen wrote: post #5
infocollector wrote: post #2

Just in case -> BYD Co. Ltd. is a Chinese manufacturing company headquartered in Shenzhen, Guangdong, founded by Wang Chuanfu in February 1995. Perhaps someone can comment on quality of these batteries compared to the current car batteries Tesla uses?

So Tesla's Li-ion batteries are going to have a significantly higher mass energy density - these are around 150Wh/kg vs 230Wh/kg that Tesla can currently muster. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that LiFePO4 handles 100% charges and 100% discharge, so in practice the protections on Li-ion means you can only really get 190Wh or so out of them every day, significantly narrowing the gap. However, these are going t…

> This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that LiFePO4 handles 100% charges and 100% discharge

I don't think that's quite true. LFP cells have a minimum voltage; they may survive being discharged to zero, but it probably isn't a good idea for long-term longevity. (I'm currently working on an EV conversion that uses LFP cells, but I haven't actually done durability testing or anything like that, I'm just going by what people recommend.)

Lithium ion and LFP batteries though don't have voltages that are linear with capacity; on an LFP once you're below 2.2 volts or so there's not much left.

I do agree though that LFP cells are pretty amazing if you're a car manufacturer that wants to make a reasonably priced mass-market EV. I think in the near term (i.e. until there's some cheaper/better substitute), they could take over the non-luxury-car EV market and allow the rest of the world outside of China to start seeing pretty good EVs that are price competitive with equivalent ICE vehicles.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#45

Post by elihu »

CarVac wrote: post #23
cowmix wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better: * can charge to 100% all the time * no rare earth minerals * stable Worse: * not as energy dense * US doesn't make a lot of this type of battery

The US doesn't make a lot of this type of battery because there is a consortium of patent-holders who charge enough to make LFP less economically viable that wasn't able to secure all the needed patents in China.

I think the main patents that haven't expired yet are about to expire in 2022.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#46

Post by dangrossman »

anonymousiam wrote: post #17

Tesla said that they will use LFP batteries from now on in all "standard range" cars. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batte... As I understand it, the "standard range" cars are no different from the long range cars, other than a software flag that allows a greater battery discharge. So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations if they ever actually build any of those. https://ww…

There are a couple replies about why Tesla doesn't still do battery swaps, but none of them got it right:

Back when Tesla demoed the battery swap capability, California's CARB was offering extra ZEV credits for each electric vehicle sold with "fast refueling" capability. Tesla set up the single "battery swap station" in order to comply with the letter of the law and collect a few extra tens of millions in credits. That one station they opened was right across the street from a free Supercharger station, had no capability for automated battery swaps, and was available by invitation only. As soon as Tesla collected its extra ZEV credits and the qualifications changed, the station was abandoned.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#47

Post by gremloni »

anonymousiam wrote: post #17

Tesla said that they will use LFP batteries from now on in all "standard range" cars. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batte... As I understand it, the "standard range" cars are no different from the long range cars, other than a software flag that allows a greater battery discharge. So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations if they ever actually build any of those. https://ww…

Battery swap stations are never going to happen. They make up too much of the cost of the vehicle. Maybe in government public transport fleets or something.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#48

Post by simondotau »

balia wrote: post #12
infocollector wrote: post #2

Just in case -> BYD Co. Ltd. is a Chinese manufacturing company headquartered in Shenzhen, Guangdong, founded by Wang Chuanfu in February 1995. Perhaps someone can comment on quality of these batteries compared to the current car batteries Tesla uses?

Is arbitrarily pointing out “fyi this is a CHINESE business” the new “fyi this is a JEWISH business”?

If it's arbitrary, then yes. In this case I don't think it's arbitrary because country of origin has significant ramifications for application of patents, etc.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#49

Post by grayhatter »

nathannecro wrote: post #21
danans wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding to this info - LiFePO4 batteries are far more chemically stable and therefore need no cooling system. I have LiFePO4 home backup batteries and they are completely passively cooled.

I'm in the market for home backup batteries and was wondering if you could namedrop the mfgs of your batteries if you were satisfied with them.

Overkill Solar https://overkillsolar.com/

I've ordered twice, and plan to order another 5kw soon

After having 2 unbranded circuit breakers fail on me. Everything else will be Blue Sea, or Victron. They're the most expensive, but they feel as high quality as they are expensive which makes it worth it. Especially considering the alternative is explosions followed by fire.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#50

Post by adfrhgeaq5hy »

anonymousiam wrote: post #17

Tesla said that they will use LFP batteries from now on in all "standard range" cars. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batte... As I understand it, the "standard range" cars are no different from the long range cars, other than a software flag that allows a greater battery discharge. So this will complicate the Tesla fast battery swap stations if they ever actually build any of those. https://ww…

The battery swap stations were a scam to get subsidies. They aren't any more real than the Cybertruck, Model 2, Roadster, solar roofs, semi, or Full Self Driving.
Post reply on HN