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How can we break our addiction to contempt?

freakonomics.com

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Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not what was said, but you have succeeded in contemptuous distortion.

Care to explain how that isn't exactly what was being said?

One more point: your argument has very strong resemblance to that of a racialist trying to justify a belief system that is fundamentally rooted in stereotypes and hatred. Contrast that to the person who supports everyone irrespective of their visuals and self-identity.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#92
post #20

At some level I will be a permanent victim of movies and media, and as such there are absolutely politicians that I hate, but I've been trying to acknowledge to myself that, generally speaking, most of their voters mean well [1], even if they are voting for politicians that I think are disgusting. As such, I've tried to not "hate" them, even if I don't particularly like a good chunk of them either. [1] Though I have…

>but I've been trying to acknowledge to myself that, generally speaking, most of their voters mean well [1], even if they are voting for politicians that I think are disgusting.

Some remedies:

(1) Actually talk to those voters and get to know them at a human level, don't just group them as an undefined mass of "people who vote badly".

(2) Try a mental game where you imagine your side has the wrong arguments or is talking from privilege, etc., and study what the other side is saying (even the naive people there, but even more so the smarter and less naive people there), trying to see how they are right. Find arguments why your (current) position is wrong.

(3) Then try for a month, to see all those sides (voters for R or D for example), as an outsider, who doesn't agree with either side. Check what people not belonging to either side have to say - e.g. political outsiders, academics doing a critique of both parties, pundits, commenters, and philosophers from a previous century not giving a damn for today's politics.

(4) Finally, see the ideas of today as from 2121, the same way we see the ideas of 1921 today. Then as from 3021 B.C. Don't assume a monotonic increase in agreement of the future with your current ideas, or the prevalent ideas of today, but that history goes back and forth in ideological fashions (including what's "good").

>[1] Though I have to say that some of the "build the wall" rhetoric around immigrants has made me question this.

Here are some examples of (2) in this case:

(1) Note that the idea of borders and citizenship is already the idea of a wall. And nobody, not even the "good guys" you voted for, ever challenged those.

(2) Note that the wall is defensive (we don't want no any more to come) and not actively harmful, then see how the good guy politicians that are feigning the idea unacceptable and inhuman, often advocate for foreign wars and interventions that actively harm millions.

(3) Note that those in favor of "building the wall" might have issues in their communities or work that e.g. a FAANG engineer might never experience as problems because they have different job prospects. Consider if your private interests were directly harmed by immigration (e.g. you are living in close quarters with poverty striken immigrants, taking to petty crime and so on, or because your low skill job industry prefers immigrants to lower costs and you're either out of a job or have your wages slashed).

And inversely, if you're say a Republican:

(1) Note that your family doesn't have very deep roots here. Just 400-200 years ago they passed some other people's non-wall (and killed a lot of them) to grap the land. If, say, you're a Kowalski or a Smith, you're not fooling anyone that you're the rightful owner of this land. B...tc please, your ancestors didn't come traversing the Bering Strait, you're not Clovis. If you're, like, second generation, your parents were bona-fide wall climbers. Perhaps they did it legaly through Ellis Island for example, but do you think they'd stopped if they were denied there, but had some other way in?

(2) Note that the Wall is established on land (TX, NM, FL, AZ, CA) stolen from the very country its people tries to keep out. It's even in the names of the states, all Spanish. Who are you fooling?

(3) Note that if you're out of a job, it might have more to do with clean shaven, suit wearing anglosaxon bosses preffering cheap immigrant labor, and less about the immigrants themselves. Plus, if those immigrants were legitimised, and given an easy way to citizenship, would they still be a cheaper option to undercut your wage?

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to explain how that isn't exactly what was being said?

First, you edited your comment. Second, you conveniently omit the part where he says he does support disenfranchised people. Third and most importantly, you bizarrely substitute leftist contempt for actual trust. Personally I think this is a pretty selfish statement that involves casting your state of mind and perspective onto someone else with a very negative sentiment.

I edited my comment to add:

How about instead, you stand for women and people of color because it's the right thing to do? Regardless of how little they trust white men. Maybe, just maybe, try and understand why they wouldn't trust white men?

The horror!

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very likely to devolve into a partisan squabble, so I don't want to keep going back and forth on this. I was ready to cite examples of the left playing fast and loose with the truth but I sense it will just create hostility. If I pick only one example, it looks like I'm not prepared and have nothing substantial to counter with. If I list multiple examples, it will look like I came here prepared for a fight as…

Can you cite an example of left-wing news outlets playing "fast and loose" in a way that literally jeopardized the foundation of US democracy and incited mass violence? Even if you think the investigation into Trump's ties to Russian influence was unjustified, it relied on democratically-elected representatives to impeach him, and it never undermined the rule of law itself. I'm sure you can find examples with lesser…

You start off with a premise that is not immediately obvious. You claim right-wing news outlets are jeopardizing the 'foundation of US democracy', but most right wingers would counter that democracy is not the foundational value of the United States, but rather, individual rights, that even democracy is subservient to the rights of the individual. For example, no matter how many people would vote for such an ability, a modern 'right winger' would reject the notion that the people should be able to buy others. Your insistence that democracy is being eroded by the right, is easily countered by most conservatives that individual liberty is being eroded by the left, and they can easily point to the coronavirus lockdowns which seem neverending, obviously overreaching, and -- given the vaccine -- also unnecessary. They can point to multiple examples of what they see as having their rights trampled over, such as being forced to participate in events they have moral concerns with, while facebook and Amazon and other large companies apparently have every right to kick off those they agree with from their multi-billion dollar platforms.

So the counter to your claim that the right is undermining democracy is that the left is undermining civil liberties.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#95
post #33

What's the Matter with Kansas? is a lovely example of contempt disguised as gentle inquiry, with a touch of worry over another, and it starts even with the title itself. "Why those poor, naive, uneducated conservatives in the flyover states, they simply do not understand that they are voting against their own interests." It's concern-trolling with a mask of pity. Once you begin looking for it, you can see it more and…

It's nice to know the actual factual content of "What's The Matter With Kansas" is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter who's correct, it matters who hurt their feelings. Which is pretty consistent - conservatives have become utterly disconnected from reality, and their absurd COVID policy has demonstrated what happens when reality doesn't give a crap how you feel.

> and their absurd COVID policy has demonstrated what happens when reality doesn't give a crap how you feel.

Then why are so many blue staters vacationing in florida and texas right now? Honestly, all my friends from california, many liberals, have all decided to move to Florida and tennessee. I'm so sick of this narrative. The COVID policy in red states has not led to drastically different outcomes, despite all insistence to the contrary

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to explain how that isn't exactly what was being said?

First, you edited your comment. Second, you conveniently omit the part where he says he does support disenfranchised people. Third and most importantly, you bizarrely substitute leftist contempt for actual trust. Personally I think this is a pretty selfish statement that involves casting your state of mind and perspective onto someone else with a very negative sentiment.

>Second, you conveniently omit the part where he says he does support disenfranchised people.

I just double checked, he definitely did NOT say that. At all.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to explain how that isn't exactly what was being said?

One more point: your argument has very strong resemblance to that of a racialist trying to justify a belief system that is fundamentally rooted in stereotypes and hatred. Contrast that to the person who supports everyone irrespective of their visuals and self-identity.

How? You are literally just making things up now.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very likely to devolve into a partisan squabble, so I don't want to keep going back and forth on this. I was ready to cite examples of the left playing fast and loose with the truth but I sense it will just create hostility. If I pick only one example, it looks like I'm not prepared and have nothing substantial to counter with. If I list multiple examples, it will look like I came here prepared for a fight as…

Can you cite an example of left-wing news outlets playing "fast and loose" in a way that literally jeopardized the foundation of US democracy and incited mass violence? Even if you think the investigation into Trump's ties to Russian influence was unjustified, it relied on democratically-elected representatives to impeach him, and it never undermined the rule of law itself. I'm sure you can find examples with lesser…

> Can you cite an example of left-wing news outlets playing "fast and loose" in a way that literally jeopardized the foundation of US democracy and incited mass violence?

Protests summer 2020? There was a huge surge covid a month after those protests everywhere in USA, even though it was summer and covid should have been low as everywhere else in the world during summers. All of the left wing politicians and news outlets scrambled to try to discredit this or hide it or find any flaws in that connection, but the connection is crystal clear. Those protests lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, there's that contempt again. You should know that this is what began to pry me away from being your basic leftist template. I said, "Wow, I better make sure I am not voting against my own interests. Wouldn't I feel like a fool if I supported people who had contempt for me." After that, I would hear "Ugh, men are awful" in a curious new light. Or someone would say "White people ruin everything" and I would realiz…

The two sides don't react to contempt symmetrically. The left doesn't care if Trump insults them. It only has any bearing if it leads to policy changes they hate. The right, on the other hand, really, really hates to be made fun of, to the point where they'd rather destroy the country (see the Civil War or the Jan 6 insurrection) than leave an insult unaddressed. The right believes the left is as sensitive as they ar…

> The left believes compassion, ideals, rational argument, and consideration of material self-interest

My goodness.. this comment is so full of itself I can't even. Yes, us right wingers believe it's good to be uncompassionate.

> they write endless tracts trying to prove their point, appealing to science and founding principles and so forth

And yet, most left wingers are so disconnected from the reality of people on the ground it's frightening. For example, Portland decided to encourage blacks to get vaccinated by putting ads of black drag queens up. I can't think of anything stupider than the disconnect of left wing pundits from material reality.

> The left doesn't care if Trump insults them. It only has any bearing if it leads to policy changes they hate

The left screamed for years about Trump's manner of speech (not his content, simple the manner). For example, Trump's big talk on immigration through the southern border was met with outright hostility, despite the current administration now keeping the EXACT same plan (the remain in mexico policy). Or, for example, when Trump insulted Antifa, we had to hear on end how Antifa was just an idea, and how being against Antifa means you're a fascist or something.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was, Metafilter account and all. Got in trouble for getting a pro-choice piece published in the local rag when I was fifteen. But damn, I am not going to give energy to people who despise me due to the incidents of my birth.

You mean like how women and people of color are CONSTANTLY despised for the incidents of their birth?

Therefore, I should be, as well? Everyone loathed, each individual despised. Somewhere, Diana Moon Glampers smiles ... we are at last equal.
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