How can we break our addiction to contempt? • Hacker News Board

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#71

Post by mrtesthah » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #54

abbub wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean...it's not 'The Left' that's pushing the 'fake news' and 'alternate facts' agenda when they come up against anything they disagree with...

As loathe as people are to hear "both sides", 'The Left' absolutely does this as too. They just use different names and insinuations to communicate the same point, that sources presented by the other side is not to be trusted.

>'The Left' absolutely does this as too.

Remember when Biden claimed that COVID-19 was invented by the Republicans to make his presidency look bad?

Remember when Obama refused to acknowledge that Trump won the presidency and when CNN aired nonstop coverage from conspiracy theorists claiming that the entire election was fraudulent?

Remember when Obama claimed months in advance that any election in which a Democrat lost was necessarily fraudulent, and then incited a mob to take over the US Capitol building during the electoral vote count? And then when Obama refused to authorize the national guard to prevent US senators and house representatives from being taken hostage?

You're damn right -- they're both totally the same.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#72

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:37 PM UTC

caylus wrote: post #68

Pxtl wrote: post #34

What's notable is where you can see reality come crashing into people who treat policy like it's a simple team sport. COVID doesn't care about your feelings, and the very real impact of higher infection rates and lower vaccination coverage is demonstrating who exactly has so dug-in on their position so far that they've become utterly disconnected from reality.

Are you implying that areas of lower vaccination coverage are seeing higher infection rates? That does not seem to be the case under rigorous analysis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/ That's the problem with "reality" - the reality you see is driven by the media that reports the reality to you. Presumably the media you read likes to run stories like "lots of cases in Florida" to score points aga…

[deleted]

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#73

Post by Nasrudith » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

registeredcorn wrote: post #25

jorblumesea wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I guess bring up negative facts is now contempt? One party is very much in favor of a more level playing field, for the most part. One party is very much against it.

>One party is very much in favor of a more level playing field, for the most part. One party is very much against it. I mean, I would hardly argue that the Democrats are "against" a level playing field, but it wouldn't be a stretch to say that they are opposed to such a premise. The fact is though, just because we both strongly dislike progressive ideology does not mean that we need to harp on their shortcomings at e…

Personally I find another factor of contempt is "failing a reverse Turing Test" where there is such high repetition and little thought that it seems as if they are organic spam bots. The inauthenticity and persistence grating seems to be a common thing given the contempt for Jehovah's witnesses, Hare Krishina's, multilevel marketers and others. Tech support forced into canned scripts are another such example - in computer science terms it seems that the low entropy becomed apparent and raises subconscious red flags.

The infamous "New World Order" conspiracy theorist archetype tends to be negative and full of put downs to their target de jure as the cause of all the world's evils. Even when it is horrifying it draws more of a watching a trainwreck style reaction.

Negativity and putdowns I would classify more as a breeder of disengagement. This is reflected by the impact of negative campaign ads being more reduced total votes than drawing more votes by looking good in comparison.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#74

Post by the_optimist » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

JasonCannon wrote: post #65

the_optimist wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not what was said, but you have succeeded in contemptuous distortion.

Care to explain how that isn't exactly what was being said?

First, you edited your comment. Second, you conveniently omit the part where he says he does support disenfranchised people. Third and most importantly, you bizarrely substitute leftist contempt for actual trust. Personally I think this is a pretty selfish statement that involves casting your state of mind and perspective onto someone else with a very negative sentiment.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#75

Post by mensetmanusman » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:45 PM UTC

shaldjfb wrote: post #10

panzagl wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right because conservative = bad and deserving of contempt. This is exactly the type of kneejerk reaction that he is talking about. The 1% do just as well when Democrats are in office, but keep on playing the game ruled by tribe and emotion, see where that gets us.

The Democratic Party is conservative by any popular measure outside of the insular American worldview. In many European countries, the Democratic Party’s politics would be considered far right.

Some examples please.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#76

Post by registeredcorn » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:46 PM UTC

h2odragon wrote: post #60

registeredcorn wrote: post #47

How can one break an addiction to contempt? The answer is dead simple. Follow the Prince of Peace. > Living the New Life > Therefore, I say this and testify in the Lord: You should no longer walk as the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their thoughts. They are darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them and because of the hardness of their hearts. They bec…

I'd say something about humility, which can be illustrated from many religious traditions; but i couldn't say it nearly so well.

Very true. I've got my own thoughts about what other religions might say, but I don't want to seem overbearing. Thanks for your kind response! :)

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#77

Post by BitwiseFool » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

mrtesthah wrote: post #71

BitwiseFool wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As loathe as people are to hear "both sides", 'The Left' absolutely does this as too. They just use different names and insinuations to communicate the same point, that sources presented by the other side is not to be trusted.

> 'The Left' absolutely does this as too. Remember when Biden claimed that COVID-19 was invented by the Republicans to make his presidency look bad? Remember when Obama refused to acknowledge that Trump won the presidency and when CNN aired nonstop coverage from conspiracy theorists claiming that the entire election was fraudulent? Remember when Obama claimed months in advance that any election in which a Democrat lo…

This is very likely to devolve into a partisan squabble, so I don't want to keep going back and forth on this. I was ready to cite examples of the left playing fast and loose with the truth but I sense it will just create hostility. If I pick only one example, it looks like I'm not prepared and have nothing substantial to counter with. If I list multiple examples, it will look like I came here prepared for a fight as a right wing partisan. How do you want to proceed, if at all?

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#78

Post by tombert » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

fighterpilot wrote: post #64

tombert wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't necessarily break with my reasoning, right? They might still actually think that the vaccines are worse than the disease. Obviously they're wrong, and they should get vaccinated, but they might be fundamentally "good" but also misguided people. I have my own hypothesis about the COVID vaccine denialism in particular, but I am afraid that it might come off as a bit too political for HN and Dang would lock…

Can you share that hypothesis? You are obviously contributing to this thread in a balanced way and in good faith and I really want to hear it. I know two anti-vaxxers. One is not political at all but isn't that smart. Very nice and generous person. Bit prone to conspiracy thinking and bought into fake news on Rumble or something. The other is very conservative and it's a team/tribe issue with him. He has a strong dis…

Ok, just to be clear I want to preface this by saying "not all conservatives". I know plenty of conservatives who are lovely and intelligent people.

-------

Basically, I think that rabid anti-vax sentiment is a natural conclusion to roughly ~40 years of near-constant levels of conspiratorial thinking from conservative circles. I think folks like Jerry Fallwell started it, and subsequently Ronald Reagan and most of the conservative politicians after him followed. People like Jerry Fallwell more or less started the "satanic panic", and it started to become somewhat politically acceptable to just say that "the devil" was doing anything that they don't like. This went largely unchallenged in evangelical circles and the evangelicals took a huge turn towards the Republican party.

Fast forward to 2012, and now it's a debate about where Barack Obama was born. A "conspiracy" was just fabricated out of nowhere, and the president is required to show his birth certificate. This was somewhat made fun of, even Bill OReilly disputed it, but it was the first conspiracy that I had heard in my lifetime being taken seriously by at least some politicians.

Fast forward to 2016, and suddenly it seems that idiots like Alex Jones, who had previously been a goofball I would turn on to get a laugh, is being taken seriously by semi-prominent conservatives. PizzaGate was still somewhat of a fringe thing, but it was the first outright debunkable conspiracy that I could think of that people I actually knew who actually believed it.

Fast forward to ~2019, and a sizeable chunk of conservatives (to be clear, NOT a majority) were starting to take the QAnon nonsense seriously, setting the way for 2020, which allowed a basic stream of perpetual lies about COVID to be spread (and accepted) on 8kun. Suddenly, despite overwhelming evidence, we have to have debates on whether we should be taking COVID seriously. Any time Fauchi contradicted Trump, it was because Fauchi was an agent of Satan or something absurd.

I think anti-vaxxing is just the natural progression. There's been an entire generation who has been more-or-less unchallenged in their conspiratorial thinking, and basically anything can be a conspiracy theory. Since they already think that COVID was overblown to make Trump look bad, they subsequently have to think that anything that addresses covid must also be bad.

The left has its share of dumb things that it believes, but it's not nearly at the same level of what is predominant in conservative culture today.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#79

Post by the_optimist » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

JasonCannon wrote: post #66

at_a_remove wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was, Metafilter account and all. Got in trouble for getting a pro-choice piece published in the local rag when I was fifteen. But damn, I am not going to give energy to people who despise me due to the incidents of my birth.

You mean like how women and people of color are CONSTANTLY despised for the incidents of their birth?

Fomenting hatred is so lame.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#80

Post by mrtesthah » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #77

mrtesthah wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 'The Left' absolutely does this as too. Remember when Biden claimed that COVID-19 was invented by the Republicans to make his presidency look bad? Remember when Obama refused to acknowledge that Trump won the presidency and when CNN aired nonstop coverage from conspiracy theorists claiming that the entire election was fraudulent? Remember when Obama claimed months in advance that any election in which a Democrat lo…

This is very likely to devolve into a partisan squabble, so I don't want to keep going back and forth on this. I was ready to cite examples of the left playing fast and loose with the truth but I sense it will just create hostility. If I pick only one example, it looks like I'm not prepared and have nothing substantial to counter with. If I list multiple examples, it will look like I came here prepared for a fight as…

Can you cite an example of left-wing news outlets playing "fast and loose" in a way that literally jeopardized the foundation of US democracy and incited mass violence?

Even if you think the investigation into Trump's ties to Russian influence was unjustified, it relied on democratically-elected representatives to impeach him, and it never undermined the rule of law itself.

I'm sure you can find examples with lesser consequences, but given the stakes, are those really relevant here?

It's easy to dismiss all such disagreements as being boiled down to partisanship, which is why it's more useful to look past the actions and focus on the outcome.

Violent rhetoric from politicians and their supporting news outlets has real consequences, and in this case the actions of one side are resulting in the potential for mass vigilante violence:

From Ethnic antagonism erodes Republicans’ commitment to democracy[1]

About half of all surveyed Republicans agreed with these points:

  1. The traditional American way of life is disappearing so fast that we may have to use force to save it.
  2. A time will come when patriotic Americans have to take the law into their own hands.
  3. Strong leaders sometimes have to bend the rules in order to get things done.
  4. It is hard to trust the results of elections when so many people will vote for anyone who offers a handout.

1. https://www.pnas.org/content/117/37/22752