How can we break our addiction to contempt? • Hacker News Board

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#61

Post by Nasrudith » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:24 PM UTC

panzagl wrote: post #16

bpodgursky wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a stupid meme which is wildly untrue if you look at actual policies.

I've often wondered about this- I mean the US has it's share of coffeehouse anarchists and redistributionists. The large size of the US and the political structure make it hard for e.g. a 'Pirate Party' representative to appear, even if there is the same amount of support per capita.

The implicit premise itself, that the Democratic political party is monolithic is false. It was an old Woodie Alan joke about not belonging to an organized political party and that is true to some extent - if your group is excluded from the GOP the DNC is the big tent. Before the 9/11 xenophobia US muslims were dominantly aligned with the Republican party, afterwards it was reversed. There are in fact many religious conservative demographics in the DNC for one.

Frankly self proclaimed leftists have a terrible habit of consent manufacturing - both from their own natural bubbles and echo chambers and ad nausuem rhetoric. There is tbe "implicit identity and support" which assumes that universal support of the working class is the natural status quo and any who disagree are puppets of the rich. This abstraction spares them from having to consider the actual opinions of the people who compose it. Their poor electoral performance in even their strongholds highlights that they are a noisy minority operating under the pretense of being a majority.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#62

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:26 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #45

at_a_remove wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, there's that contempt again. You should know that this is what began to pry me away from being your basic leftist template. I said, "Wow, I better make sure I am not voting against my own interests. Wouldn't I feel like a fool if I supported people who had contempt for me." After that, I would hear "Ugh, men are awful" in a curious new light. Or someone would say "White people ruin everything" and I would realiz…

Again, you're talking about feelings instead of policy. About "contempt" instead of dollars and rights and lives. I can't help but see this as every bit as ridiculous as the anti-vaxxers who dig their heels in even as the people around them are dying, because they don't want to give in to The Left on vaccines.

[deleted]

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#63

Post by the_optimist » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:26 PM UTC

JasonCannon wrote: post #51

at_a_remove wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, there's that contempt again. You should know that this is what began to pry me away from being your basic leftist template. I said, "Wow, I better make sure I am not voting against my own interests. Wouldn't I feel like a fool if I supported people who had contempt for me." After that, I would hear "Ugh, men are awful" in a curious new light. Or someone would say "White people ruin everything" and I would realiz…

>After that, I would hear "Ugh, men are awful" in a curious new light. Or someone would say "White people ruin everything" and I would realize, hey, I'm white. This sort of thing began to add up and it became clear that "going left" meant supporting people who had contempt for me, purely on the basis of things like skin color and sex. See, I would stand up for social justice and protecting women and people of color.…

That’s not what was said, but you have succeeded in contemptuous distortion.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#64

Post by fighterpilot » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #38

Pxtl wrote: post #34

What's notable is where you can see reality come crashing into people who treat policy like it's a simple team sport. COVID doesn't care about your feelings, and the very real impact of higher infection rates and lower vaccination coverage is demonstrating who exactly has so dug-in on their position so far that they've become utterly disconnected from reality.

That doesn't necessarily break with my reasoning, right? They might still actually think that the vaccines are worse than the disease. Obviously they're wrong, and they should get vaccinated, but they might be fundamentally "good" but also misguided people. I have my own hypothesis about the COVID vaccine denialism in particular, but I am afraid that it might come off as a bit too political for HN and Dang would lock…

Can you share that hypothesis? You are obviously contributing to this thread in a balanced way and in good faith and I really want to hear it.

I know two anti-vaxxers.

One is not political at all but isn't that smart. Very nice and generous person. Bit prone to conspiracy thinking and bought into fake news on Rumble or something.

The other is very conservative and it's a team/tribe issue with him. He has a strong distrust of institutions that he thinks are run by leftists and would distrust anything they say.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#65

Post by JasonCannon » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

the_optimist wrote: post #63

JasonCannon wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>After that, I would hear "Ugh, men are awful" in a curious new light. Or someone would say "White people ruin everything" and I would realize, hey, I'm white. This sort of thing began to add up and it became clear that "going left" meant supporting people who had contempt for me, purely on the basis of things like skin color and sex. See, I would stand up for social justice and protecting women and people of color.…

That’s not what was said, but you have succeeded in contemptuous distortion.

Care to explain how that isn't exactly what was being said?

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#66

Post by JasonCannon » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #59

JasonCannon wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>After that, I would hear "Ugh, men are awful" in a curious new light. Or someone would say "White people ruin everything" and I would realize, hey, I'm white. This sort of thing began to add up and it became clear that "going left" meant supporting people who had contempt for me, purely on the basis of things like skin color and sex. See, I would stand up for social justice and protecting women and people of color.…

I was, Metafilter account and all. Got in trouble for getting a pro-choice piece published in the local rag when I was fifteen. But damn, I am not going to give energy to people who despise me due to the incidents of my birth.

You mean like how women and people of color are CONSTANTLY despised for the incidents of their birth?

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#67

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #45

at_a_remove wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, there's that contempt again. You should know that this is what began to pry me away from being your basic leftist template. I said, "Wow, I better make sure I am not voting against my own interests. Wouldn't I feel like a fool if I supported people who had contempt for me." After that, I would hear "Ugh, men are awful" in a curious new light. Or someone would say "White people ruin everything" and I would realiz…

Again, you're talking about feelings instead of policy. About "contempt" instead of dollars and rights and lives. I can't help but see this as every bit as ridiculous as the anti-vaxxers who dig their heels in even as the people around them are dying, because they don't want to give in to The Left on vaccines.

I don't think this is a "feelings" thing. Being openly contemptuous of the people I'm trying to help raises legitimate questions about my motivations and honesty. If you see someone go around cracking homophobic jokes all the time, is it worth carefully considering their policy ideas on LGBT issues?

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#68

Post by caylus » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #34

What's notable is where you can see reality come crashing into people who treat policy like it's a simple team sport. COVID doesn't care about your feelings, and the very real impact of higher infection rates and lower vaccination coverage is demonstrating who exactly has so dug-in on their position so far that they've become utterly disconnected from reality.

Are you implying that areas of lower vaccination coverage are seeing higher infection rates? That does not seem to be the case under rigorous analysis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/

That's the problem with "reality" - the reality you see is driven by the media that reports the reality to you. Presumably the media you read likes to run stories like "lots of cases in Florida" to score points against the "other team", while ignoring deeper analysis like the paper I linked.

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#69

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #52

Pxtl wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The challenge is that historically the political mainstream has been endlessly assuming good faith on obvious bad actors, to the point that Trump's obvious racism was controversial to point out because he didn't literally dress up as a Klansman wielding a noose. As a reaction to this problem you see the basic approach that the social justice wing has basically declared that intent doesn't matter . No more excuses. An…

I never said that the politicians are acting in good faith. I said that I think a lot of the voters are.

[deleted]

Re: How can we break our addiction to contempt?

#70

Post by googlryas » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

abbub wrote: post #41

BitwiseFool wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but think this sense is so prevalent on 'The Left' because they have established an image for themselves that is rational, empathetic, and humanist above all else. They actively frame their positions and actions in terms of "justice" and "fairness". They love to declare that "Reality has a well known liberal bias" and frame people who see the world different as rejecting reality itself. With motivations…

I mean...it's not 'The Left' that's pushing the 'fake news' and 'alternate facts' agenda when they come up against anything they disagree with...

Tucker Carlson, Alex Jones, and Rachel Maddow have all used "No one could honestly believe that what we say is really true" as an argument in legal proceedings against them.