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Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

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Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#231
post #221
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> retribution is an important social construct I would like to see evidence to back up your claim - evidence that supports the extension of this idea from the real world to the internet , because you don't get that for free. Moreover, I can think of far more examples of retribution causing harm in the real world than doing good. Bullying in school, being fired for whistleblowing, being jailed or executed for wrongthi…

The real life interactions are much more civil because of the fact that being an a*hole gets retribution from the person you are being an a*hole to or from the society. Perfectly nice people turn into psychos when they interact with people online. Observe kids playing games in real life, they are very rarely as vulgar or sadistic as on online games. A walk even in the most crowded places is much nicer experience that…

> Observe kids playing games in real life, they are very rarely as vulgar or sadistic as on online games.

Kids are actually rarely vulgar or sadistic when playing online as well. The toxicity of online gaming communities is a self-reinforcing feedback loop. The toxic kids find a home and either drive all the nice kids out with their toxicity or prompt the nice kids to adapt and internalize toxic ways of engaging. It's not an inherent feature of kids themselves and plenty of online games that were explicitly targeted at children have been perfectly fine without epidemics of griefing or abuse as long as they constrain kids to playing within their own friend-groups rather than against strangers.

Most of the foulest people are actually adults with jobs or surly teenagers. The kids are fine.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#232
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know that this is very unpopular opinion but there are very few cases where anonymity is useful. This just isn't true. It makes the assumption that what you will be shamed or punished for saying is completely in line with what is right. No way is that the case, whether you are talking about drugs, gender and sexuality issues, unpopular political ideas, or a host of other things. Your argument is no different from…

So what if you are ashamed? it’s human nature, you face it and move on. If you think that it’s something that it’s not to be ashamed, you defend your position. I also suggested a mechanism to stay anonymous as long as you are not causing problems. If you need the anonymity, simply go that route.

>I also suggested a mechanism to stay anonymous as long as you are not causing problems.

And who decides what constitutes "causing problems?"

While the vast majority of us (at least I hope so) would agree that violence and murder focused on a particular ethnic, religious or other group is a "problem," most other things have much less widespread support.

I have some fairly unpopular ideas, as well as some that are more readily accepted.

Should I be doxxed for expressing the thought that all drugs should be legal? For complaining vociferously about the business models of big social media companies?

In fact, it doesn't really matter what position I take on pretty much anything (vi vs. emacs, vanilla vs. chocolate ice cream, pandemic policies, etc., etc., etc.), there are those who will disagree -- sometimes with respectful argument/discussion, sometimes with hyperbole and personal attacks, and depending on the topic, even with violence.

There are some places in the US where criticizing Trump could get me ostracized, beaten or killed. And yet other places where taking the opposite position could have a similar effect.

The hundred or so Hong Kong journalists and activists that are sitting in jails for advocating that the government adhere to its own constitution are there because they were "causing problems."

And so I'll pose my question again: Who decides whether or not you, I or anyone else is "causing problems?"

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#233
post #191
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think the push to deanonymize is to censor people? It's to extract more value from them. It's for more ads, more dynamic pricing, etc. Meanwhile, the enlightenment was specifically when a wide variety of viewpoints started getting published.

>It's to extract more value from them. It's for more ads, more dynamic pricing, etc. Yes, this is a good point. But in my mind this is more of an incidental convenience, not the primary reason. >Meanwhile, the enlightenment was specifically when a wide variety of viewpoints started getting published. Exactly! And when was it easier than now, or even possible, to get access to practically the whole variety of viewpoin…

> Everyone can now play an active part in the conversation with barely any barriers at all.

There are barriers. What people will actually see are mediated by algorithms that favor certain styles of presentation and types of content. It takes a fair amount of knowledge to not just make a point, but make it in a way that will gain traction rather than being shouted into a void. That knowledge comes from refinement and practice. It's why everyone on Twitter starts to sound the same once they get a big follower count. The likes and shares are actually training them to talk about certain things and certain ways through a reinforcement loop.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#234
post #23

Anonymity is important because it allows you to have discussions purely based on the arguments and opinions, without the bias of who youre talking to. I often find myself having a wonderfully deep discussion with someone online, and when I eventually find out what they look like (etc), I often realize that they dont look as friendly, educated, etc as they are. Humans are really bad at this, and you will put people in…

Anonymity can enable that but it also enables far nastier things. There are pros and cons. Simply pointing out pros is not enough to win the day.

What's wrong with just allowing users to mute/ignore others?

Instead of banning anonymity (which is a ridiculous thing to do), platforms can provide better tools to allow users to curate content or join discussion rooms.

If you want some type of troll blocker to prevent spam accounts, you can use an anonymous crypto in junction with sign-up for a small fee that is inconsequential to a single user but painful at scale for users that generate many accounts.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#235
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But retribution is an important social construct. Sometimes, you speak your mind and get retribution. Sometimes you deserve it however if you are not getting a fair one people side with you. I know that this is very unpopular opinion but there are very few cases where anonymity is useful. The rest is mostly useful for the abusive ones. Instead of banning people and removing content, I would prefer losing anonymity. I…

> there are very few cases where anonymity is useful. The rest is mostly useful for the abusive ones. As long as you don't talk about anything not following the official lines and/or the mainstream ideology, sure... there are many topics which are effectively banned and will get you punished one way or another for just mentioning them

Currently, if you say something unpopular you will be downvoted and your speech will be hidden from the rest on most platforms. You can also be silenced completely by getting banned. I am proposing a mechanism to overcome this kind of censorship in exchange of your anonymity in case you had a problem with the management. If you get banned, if your posts are removed and you believe in what you say, you put your reputation on the line by revealing your identity and override account locks and content removal.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#236
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real life interactions are much more civil because of the fact that being an a*hole gets retribution from the person you are being an a*hole to or from the society. Perfectly nice people turn into psychos when they interact with people online. Observe kids playing games in real life, they are very rarely as vulgar or sadistic as on online games. A walk even in the most crowded places is much nicer experience that…

> Observe kids playing games in real life, they are very rarely as vulgar or sadistic as on online games. Kids are actually rarely vulgar or sadistic when playing online as well. The toxicity of online gaming communities is a self-reinforcing feedback loop. The toxic kids find a home and either drive all the nice kids out with their toxicity or prompt the nice kids to adapt and internalize toxic ways of engaging. It'…

>Most of the foulest people are actually adults with jobs or surly teenagers. The kids are fine.

Removal of anonymity will help to settle this one.

Please notice how I don't simply propose removal of anonymity as using real name in your online image. I am proposing a way to lose anonymity in exchange of overriding the management when you have a collusion.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#237
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what if you are ashamed? it’s human nature, you face it and move on. If you think that it’s something that it’s not to be ashamed, you defend your position. I also suggested a mechanism to stay anonymous as long as you are not causing problems. If you need the anonymity, simply go that route.

>I also suggested a mechanism to stay anonymous as long as you are not causing problems. And who decides what constitutes "causing problems?" While the vast majority of us (at least I hope so) would agree that violence and murder focused on a particular ethnic, religious or other group is a "problem," most other things have much less widespread support. I have some fairly unpopular ideas, as well as some that are mor…

Causing problems constitutes whatever the management of the platform thinks so.

I am proposing a right to overide management in exchange of giving up your anonymity when you have problem with the management of the platform if you think that you still want to participate in that platform.

I'm proposing a system where platforms lose their ability to censor people if the people in question are ready to bear the personal responsibility of their actions.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#238
post #54

No, there is no silver bullet. Yes, banning anonymity is dumb idea. Also, opt-in authenticated identity is necessary. It's ridiculous that bots, trolls, and sockpuppets are given the same esteem and protections as real people. To curtail harassment, nerf the outrage machine (algorithmic newsfeeds) and ad revenue biz models.

> To curtail harassment, nerf the outrage machine (algorithmic newsfeeds) and ad revenue biz models. Speaking only on the money side of this, that is a very easy (and popular) thing to say, but a very difficult thing to do. How would you support these services without the ad revenue business model? Most of the other business models people have tried do not pay the salaries of the network operations people required to…

Who has a right to profit? Especially when profit comes from harm.

I believe but cannot prove than most targeted advertising is fraudulant. When whistleblowers leak those metrics, this might be a self correcting problem.

Meanwhile...

There are plenty of other ways to run a business.

metafilter, craigslist, ravelery.org, others do well, without harming their users.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're diverting. Being attacked and/or killed is almost never voluntary. Viewing anonymous posts on the internet is almost always voluntary. Whatever damage is caused is emergent from the framework of interpretations of the individual. This is closer kin to victimless crime as opposed to real crime than it is conditional rules of engagement. I'm under the impression you're engaging in sophistry though, "This is trou…

People spread harmful lies better when they aren't banned from doing so and when the harm they do is attached to a pseudonym not their actual life. It is vastly harder to exclude people spreading harmful lies when they can do it under 27 trivially created and then discarded identities across 12 platform. It's trivial to argue that people agree to engage with online communities as they agree to engage in in person com…

>You may note my username is simply a plain old name and it's my real name. I cannot any longer support anonymity save for cases where safety demand it.

Please ask yourself how you would feel if this site did that -- or even, in fact, if HN didn't actually make anon accounts (without even requiring an email confirmation) so easy that it's an incredibly common occurrence.

One of the things I like about HN is that while anonymity is certainly possible having an identity which is known to the community (whether that be one's actual identity, or in my case a pseudonymous one), allows us to build (and/or repudiate/destroy, as we choose) credibility and engage in discussions over time.

I will say that 'nobody9999' is not the name on my passport, nor is it the name I use with my bank or (when I actually used such things) social media accounts.

However, a search through HN's archives will, nonetheless, provide a history of my comments and submissions.

Should I turn into a raving asshole, the admins/moderators can sanction/ban me without ever knowing my 'legal' name.

That makes a lot more sense than forcing folks to tie their legal identities to everything they do online.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#240
post #23

Anonymity is important because it allows you to have discussions purely based on the arguments and opinions, without the bias of who youre talking to. I often find myself having a wonderfully deep discussion with someone online, and when I eventually find out what they look like (etc), I often realize that they dont look as friendly, educated, etc as they are. Humans are really bad at this, and you will put people in…

> Anonymity is important because it allows you to have discussions purely based on the arguments and opinions, without the bias of who youre talking to. I often find myself having a wonderfully deep discussion with someone online, and when I eventually find out what they look like (etc), I often realize that they dont look as friendly, educated, etc as they are.

Yes and no. Anonymity also prompts people to make lots of assumptions about you based on what and how you say things that may not hold and may even distort how the messages are received.

For example, I'm an ethnic minority but if I break from certain aspects of identarian political dogma it is generally assumed that I am White. Women who deviate from a certain line on gender issues are, similarly, often assumed to be male unless they indicate otherwise. On issues where a person's lived experiences stemming from their identity might matter, the assumption of there being a 'default' identity ends up kind of polarizing perspectives and eliding nuances and potential middle-ground on a host of issues.

Put another way, it has been said that "on the internet nobody knows you're a dog." But not everyone defines themselves by their "dogness" to the same extent, nor does being a "dog" mean the same thing to all dogs. But since we assume everyone is a default template until they loudly and proudly fly an identifying marker, the only voices who speak for the dogs will be the doggiest of the doggy, the people whose identity as dogs is the most important thing to them in that moment.

Bringing that back to a concrete example, I remember when I first made the switch from Windows to Macintosh in the early aughts (in the peak of the Switch ad era). Initially making the switch was kind of a revelation. I had really just never experienced a computer that was well designed before nor technology that put this much attention towards--what I would later learn to refer to as--UI/UX. I could not stop evangelizing this to everyone who would listen because, to me, it was new and super cool and I was just really really enthusiastic about it. This happened often enough that Apple fanatics online got a reputation for being over-exuberant and kind of deluded. But the thing is, after a few years I just stopped posting about Apple stuff because I had grown into having more balanced and nuanced perspectives on computing. But the assumption in a place like Slashdot back then was that you're a Linux or Windows guy unless you state otherwise. Thus only the newly converted, over-excited Apple fanboys are taken as representative of Mac users and the ones with mellower perspectives are drowned out.

With computing platforms it's all rather frivolous and probably doesn't matter. But when it comes to social or political issues, this dynamic can have real effects on what we think of as an authentically [group] opinion and who gets to speak for whom. I think it has a tendency to foster a certain essentialist way of looking at the world that is rife with ecological fallacies.

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