I am getting out of software development after 10 years of coding • Hacker News Board

Re: I am getting out of software development after 10 years of coding

#71

Post by Ginden » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

eatYourFood wrote: post #41

Xophmeister wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed... I'm beginning to believe that I exist in an alternate universe (colloquially known as "Europe") where insane software engineering salaries aren't normalised.

It took me 7 years to get to 101,000 GBP (140,000 USD) in London. After 10 years I am now on 125,000 GBP + bonuses (172,000 USD). Wages in the US are higher but for some reason I don't see a higher standard of living; there must be other factors at play. History: Java dev - large consultancy Java dev - small consultancy Tech lead - contractor Senior Architect - Massive software vendor (not FAANG) Principal Architect…

Wages in US have higher ceiling. Averages aren't that much different.

This contributes to brain drain - if you are pretty good developer, you aren't really incentived to move to US. If you are one of the best, in US you can earn many times more.

Re: I am getting out of software development after 10 years of coding

#72

Post by eatYourFood » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

TameAntelope wrote: post #68

eatYourFood wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just cultural, it's personal too. I've worked with (and still work with) many Americans, let me give you an idea. I get paid 174,000 USD per year I take 6 weeks off (vacation) per year to sail in the Mediterranean and to SKI in the French and Swiss alps. This is fully paid and it would be highly abnormal if I did not take this time off. My wife was paid her full salary for 6 months to have a baby. The govern…

Methinks you watch too much news about the US. Those problems you're alluding to don't affect the vast majority of Americans making $174k+/year, and that's kind of one of the problems we're having right now.

Take my salary down to 50k and everything remains true on that list except my holidays will be at cheap family resorts on the Mediterranean rather than in 5* hotels.

That cannot be said for the average American:

that may struggle with massive medical bills,

lack of strong worker protection,

kids doing active shooter drills, (three people from my clients have had their kids do this in the past few weeks)

maybe 1 week of vacation per year,

Crazy student loans where some people end up paying back thousands but still owing more than when they started - you could argue this is their own fault but the ability to dig yourself into that sort of hole doesn't even exist here.

no law to mandate maternity pay etc etc...

Can you elaborate on some of the news I've watched? I don't understand that reference and I don't often read news out of the US unless its global headline grabbing.

Re: I am getting out of software development after 10 years of coding

#73

Post by dqpb » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

dcow wrote: post #69

acwan93 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much like plumbers where clients don't understand the issue and yell at you for "excessive billing" or asking for discounts.

People always look at me weird when I call software dev digital plumbing. Then they come back the next day and say, “actually I was thinking about it and you’re totally right!…”.

It depends on the scale though right? Plumbing a city has different problems than plumbing a bathroom.

Re: I am getting out of software development after 10 years of coding

#74

Post by spease » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

jmac01 wrote: post #36

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #4

I really think people who leave software engineering altogether mostly failed to find a company that respects engineers/pays well. If you are good at the algorithms interviews, you can make ~400k with 5 to 8 years of experience. Do that for a decade, and with some saving and basic investing, you are basically done working. On the other hand, fail to pass the algorithms interview, you are essentially stuck at 140-170k…

Is this based on experience? This post reads a bit like a student studying algorithms for the coding interview thinking that is the pathway to success.

I've worked in the valley for ~9 years, have ~20 YOE if you include self-taught web dev and game dev work with a commercial game engine in online teams during high school, and this has absolutely been my experience.

The first thing I tell anybody starting out who asks me for advice is to study algorithms. Not because I think it will be inherently useful to programming, but because I think it will do more to help them interview for high-paying jobs than actual coding skills.

Re: I am getting out of software development after 10 years of coding

#75

Post by eatYourFood » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

samhw wrote: post #50

AlwaysRock wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many fang companies have offices all over Europe. The pay is not quite as high as the US but it is much higher than average dev European salaries.

Eh, this is not always and everywhere true. I have friends at Google here in London and some of the salary figures I've heard are shockingly low. As in, sub-or-around-100k low. Though admittedly these are people who I'd guess are below, say, L5.

That 'low' salary may put them in the top few percent of the whole country for their age bracket which means they can live quite nice lives. Everything is relative.

Re: I am getting out of software development after 10 years of coding

#76

Post by TameAntelope » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

eatYourFood wrote: post #72

TameAntelope wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Methinks you watch too much news about the US. Those problems you're alluding to don't affect the vast majority of Americans making $174k+/year, and that's kind of one of the problems we're having right now.

Take my salary down to 50k and everything remains true on that list except my holidays will be at cheap family resorts on the Mediterranean rather than in 5* hotels. That cannot be said for the average American: that may struggle with massive medical bills, lack of strong worker protection, kids doing active shooter drills, (three people from my clients have had their kids do this in the past few weeks) maybe 1 week…

Yep, totally fair about making less money being a problem in the US, and it's a big problem right now in the US where the upper class has a totally different experience than the middle/lower class, but taking your salary down isn't what we were talking about. The point is that, at this income level, the quality of life in the US shoots up substantially, to the point where it matches what you describe, but also isn't on an island in the Atlantic with terrible weather and a lot less geographic diversity. :)

And no, I don't believe for one second that you don't understand "that reference" w/r/t watching too much US news! How else would you know what's going on in the US and misapply it to the upper class?

No, you know exactly what you were referencing, you just didn't know how stratified the social structure is here in the US, so you thought you could apply issues you know affect the middle class to the upper class, when that wasn't actually the case.

It's fine! This is a learning moment, all good. The US has a complex society, partially because we're so big (both geographically and population -- it's a lot easier to run a country when everyone is nearby and there are a lot fewer of you), and now is a good time for you to learn that our problems aren't shared across social levels.

Re: I am getting out of software development after 10 years of coding

#77

Post by spease » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

johncessna wrote: post #22

I think he's setting up some false choices here. Also, when I look at the interests list, 'Tech evangelism' was the first thing I thought of, not kitchen helper. I'll also argue that after 10 years as a software engineer, if you're still just putting buttons on a page or waiting for next feature to show up on your queue, you're doing it wrong. Software engineering contains a large range of disciplines. You don't need…

Hey, some of us enjoy putting buttons on a page (UI/UX) ;).

However, I have to agree somewhat with the assertion that software is getting more specialized. When I started out, the advice I repeatedly got was not to worry about what programming language you knew, because every job you would work with would expect you to learn whatever their tech stack was.

Re: I am getting out of software development after 10 years of coding

#78

Post by dcow » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

dqpb wrote: post #73

dcow wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People always look at me weird when I call software dev digital plumbing. Then they come back the next day and say, “actually I was thinking about it and you’re totally right!…”.

It depends on the scale though right? Plumbing a city has different problems than plumbing a bathroom.

Plumbing isn’t meant to be a reduction. You’re still solving problems. But at the end of the day the data must flow.

Re: I am getting out of software development after 10 years of coding

#79

Post by Jensson » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #53

phreeza wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > It all comes down to a test. > And feasibility of getting an US visa. Or Switzerland, which is relatively easy for most Europeans, and easier than US for virtually everyone, I think.

Swiss total compensation at companies which pay 400-500k in the US is much lower than that. Unless you are super fortunate to join at the start of a boom cycle when shares are about to double in value or something. You basically need to be in the US, and in the US in the Silicon Valley, Seattle or NYC, I think, to somewhat reasonably hit 400-500k with just an algorithms interview :-)

Google Switzerland pays the same as the main campus in California.

Re: I am getting out of software development after 10 years of coding

#80

Post by Jensson » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

dcow wrote: post #69

acwan93 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much like plumbers where clients don't understand the issue and yell at you for "excessive billing" or asking for discounts.

People always look at me weird when I call software dev digital plumbing. Then they come back the next day and say, “actually I was thinking about it and you’re totally right!…”.

Software engineer can be similar to plumbing, an maybe for most jobs it is. But it can be so many other things as well. Writing a game isn't much like that at all for example.