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Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

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Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#271

Post by gremloni »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #238
gremloni wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe but the Viking’s modus operandi seemed like it was pillage/rape/kidnap the best looking women and then head out. I can only think of one settlement the Vikings set up in Gaul.

> I can only think of one settlement the Vikings set up in Gaul Are you calling Normandy one settlement? As they certainly spent most of the Viking age colonizing from Iceland to Sicily.

Most of the “colonizing” happened in prehistory. It was also based out of Ukraine, don’t know if you can attribute that to the Vikings.

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#272

Post by RhodesianHunter »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #259
BurningFrog wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very far from my expertise, but surely you can also live off the land? Hunting and fishing shouldn't be very different in Newfoundland compared to Norway/Iceland. Bring a few chickens along, and you have another food source. I assume/guess the vikings were better at this stuff than the Mayflower crowd.

Simply put, living off the land is HARD, even with an established settlement and some trade, mass starvation is a pretty likely outcome. Reality is more complex and challenging than Farmville or AnimalCrossing.

Provided you're fit and capable it's not too hard until winter rolls around.

Surviving winter solo or in a small group is damned near impossible.

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#273

Post by acjohnson55 »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #259
BurningFrog wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very far from my expertise, but surely you can also live off the land? Hunting and fishing shouldn't be very different in Newfoundland compared to Norway/Iceland. Bring a few chickens along, and you have another food source. I assume/guess the vikings were better at this stuff than the Mayflower crowd.

Simply put, living off the land is HARD, even with an established settlement and some trade, mass starvation is a pretty likely outcome. Reality is more complex and challenging than Farmville or AnimalCrossing.

In Animal Crossing, you've got Tom Nook, a whole commercial infrastructure, and an airport to help you out.

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#274

Post by acjohnson55 »

munk-a wrote: post #237
gremloni wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe but the Viking’s modus operandi seemed like it was pillage/rape/kidnap the best looking women and then head out. I can only think of one settlement the Vikings set up in Gaul.

There were norse settlments all over the place - Russia, Normandy, Lower and Central Germany, England (the Danelaw was a thing for a while), Ireland and, famously, Byzantium. For settling uninhabited locales you've got Shetland, Mann, the Isles, Iceland and some seasonal settlements on Greenland.

Don't forget Southern Italy and Sicily!

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#275

Post by acjohnson55 »

gremloni wrote: post #268
munk-a wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were norse settlments all over the place - Russia, Normandy, Lower and Central Germany, England (the Danelaw was a thing for a while), Ireland and, famously, Byzantium. For settling uninhabited locales you've got Shetland, Mann, the Isles, Iceland and some seasonal settlements on Greenland.

Byzantium? I would love some reading material on that.

Here's a short podcast series that talks about the Normans, including Bohemond, who set up a crusader state in Antioch, which had been Byzantine territory not long before: https://normancenturies.com/

You might also check out the podcast History of Byzantium. Although you'll have to go many hours before encountering the Norse, in the form of the Varangians.

And I also recommend the excellent book Children of Ash and Elm for a very recent overview of Viking history.

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#276

Post by AnimalMuppet »

gremloni wrote: post #268
munk-a wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were norse settlments all over the place - Russia, Normandy, Lower and Central Germany, England (the Danelaw was a thing for a while), Ireland and, famously, Byzantium. For settling uninhabited locales you've got Shetland, Mann, the Isles, Iceland and some seasonal settlements on Greenland.

Byzantium? I would love some reading material on that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians#Byzantine_Empire

It's not much, but it's a start.

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#277

Post by acjohnson55 »

gremloni wrote: post #271
boomboomsubban wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can only think of one settlement the Vikings set up in Gaul Are you calling Normandy one settlement? As they certainly spent most of the Viking age colonizing from Iceland to Sicily.

Most of the “colonizing” happened in prehistory. It was also based out of Ukraine, don’t know if you can attribute that to the Vikings.

I think you may be misinformed.

Viking was a lifestyle or temporary occupation, not a people. The people were the Norse, and they did a massive amount of settling in the Viking Age.

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#278

Post by nashashmi »

chestertn wrote: post #41

There are plenty of valid claims that many other civilizations contacted America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_co... But it is meaningless since they did not write about it nor they stablished commerce. The fact is that before 1492, most civilizations in Africa/Asia/Europe did not know that America existed and that other humans lived there. After 1492, that changed forever.

This brings up a good point about what does discover mean. People lived in north America but they did not write about it to Europeans so they had to be discovered.

Why does my understanding of history seem to revolve around what Europeans did and did not do/know?

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#279

Post by jjk166 »

beaner wrote: post #187
jcranmer wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, no. The Classic Maya collapse dates to around 900, which is before Cahokia even gets going.

I think by "around the same time" he probably just means "plus or minus a few hundred years, before the Europeans". Point being that native collapse happened at large scale in multiple areas prior to European settling.

That's like saying the Roman and Carthaginian empires both fell around the same time, and thus were part of the same event. Pre-industrial populations naturally fluctuate over time, and some regions may have been in a slight decline prior to European contact, but nothing at all comparable to after contact, when population decreased by about 90% in 50 years.

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#280

Post by s1artibartfast »

RhodesianHunter wrote: post #272
s1artibartfast wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply put, living off the land is HARD, even with an established settlement and some trade, mass starvation is a pretty likely outcome. Reality is more complex and challenging than Farmville or AnimalCrossing.

Provided you're fit and capable it's not too hard until winter rolls around. Surviving winter solo or in a small group is damned near impossible.

That really depends on the location, tools you have, and familiarity with the environment.
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