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Worn-out nurses hit the road for better pay, stressing hospital budgets, morale

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Re: Worn-out nurses hit the road for better pay, stressing hospital budgets, morale

#61

Post by chucksta »

wayoutthere wrote: post #39
mfer wrote: post #33

There are a few things I've learned from the nurses I know... - Nurses, the primary caregivers in Hospitals, have been treated pretty poorly for a long time. Some of it is pay, some of it is expectations, some of it is just the way the people around them treat them (e.g., the way surgeons often talk to them). - Some management has gotten down right mean. I know one hospital that has dictated that refusing to work a m…

> (e.g., the way surgeons often talk to them) To be fair, surgeons talk to everyone that way. I haven’t met a surgeon who didn’t talk down to other people. My theory is that you have to have a huge fucking ego to cut someone open and believe you’re going to make them better.

Good theory, mine was there is such little tolerance for them to be incorrect, so it's "what I said because I said it"

Re: Worn-out nurses hit the road for better pay, stressing hospital budgets, morale

#62

Post by lostmsu »

captnObvious wrote: post #25
cabbageoverload wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have information that supports this theory or is it just a guess?

Worked in hospitals for years. The day my flu vaccine expired I had to go get another or I would be in violation of my contract. Has been like that for decades.

Have you ever seen people quitting over that?

Re: Worn-out nurses hit the road for better pay, stressing hospital budgets, morale

#63

Post by clarge1120 »

josh_today wrote: post #4

Could this also be a result of forced vaccinations on healthcare workers (who were on the front lines for us early in the pandemic) who then move to states without mandates.

This is a valid question that does appear politically motivated. But, the downvoting does appear politically motivated.

If we look at the from-state/to-state patterns, we may see evidence, one way or the other, that vaccine mandates cause healthcare workers to change jobs. We may see that the mandates do not cause any significant change. Any significant change (15% or more) in the number of healthcare workers can result in a change in healthcare quality from one state to another. If quality of healthcare changes significantly (positively or negatively) in a state, due to vaccine mandates, I want to know: especially if it is in my state.

Re: Worn-out nurses hit the road for better pay, stressing hospital budgets, morale

#64

Post by clarge1120 »

cabbageoverload wrote: post #7
josh_today wrote: post #4

Could this also be a result of forced vaccinations on healthcare workers (who were on the front lines for us early in the pandemic) who then move to states without mandates.

Do you have information that supports this theory or is it just a guess?

Does every question have to be supported by verifiable information, or is it just an offhand question?

Re: Worn-out nurses hit the road for better pay, stressing hospital budgets, morale

#65

Post by clarge1120 »

benjaminwootton wrote: post #15
josh_today wrote: post #4

Could this also be a result of forced vaccinations on healthcare workers (who were on the front lines for us early in the pandemic) who then move to states without mandates.

Amazing how even raising this as a question gets you downvoted. Yes, I’m sure it’s a factor, and needlessly so considering the vaccine seems to have a negligible effect on transmission. Prepared for my own downvotes after sharing some particularly uncomfortable truths.

Not only will your comment be downvoted, it will be relentlessly questioned for veracity, as if asking a question required verifiable links from approved sources.

Re: Worn-out nurses hit the road for better pay, stressing hospital budgets, morale

#66

Post by clarge1120 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #29
benjaminwootton wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing how even raising this as a question gets you downvoted. Yes, I’m sure it’s a factor, and needlessly so considering the vaccine seems to have a negligible effect on transmission. Prepared for my own downvotes after sharing some particularly uncomfortable truths.

> Amazing how even raising this as a question gets you downvoted. That's because it's readily debunked. Nurses largely can't evade the vaccine mandates by moving; virtually all healthcare facilities are subject to the Federal vaccine mandate. > Yes, I’m sure it’s a factor, and needlessly so considering the vaccine seems to have a negligible effect on transmission. That doesn't seem to be true. https://www.nbcnews.com…

That's not why the question is downvoted. One can ask a question without the Achewallie crew dropping in with a wall of words.

Re: Worn-out nurses hit the road for better pay, stressing hospital budgets, morale

#67

Post by senortumnus »

wayoutthere wrote: post #39
mfer wrote: post #33

There are a few things I've learned from the nurses I know... - Nurses, the primary caregivers in Hospitals, have been treated pretty poorly for a long time. Some of it is pay, some of it is expectations, some of it is just the way the people around them treat them (e.g., the way surgeons often talk to them). - Some management has gotten down right mean. I know one hospital that has dictated that refusing to work a m…

> (e.g., the way surgeons often talk to them) To be fair, surgeons talk to everyone that way. I haven’t met a surgeon who didn’t talk down to other people. My theory is that you have to have a huge fucking ego to cut someone open and believe you’re going to make them better.

Surgeon here, always try to treat nurses with respect and work with them as a team member to accomplish the best care for the patient. Maybe it’s a midwest thing.

Re: Worn-out nurses hit the road for better pay, stressing hospital budgets, morale

#68

Post by rsj_hn »

clarge1120 wrote: post #63
josh_today wrote: post #4

Could this also be a result of forced vaccinations on healthcare workers (who were on the front lines for us early in the pandemic) who then move to states without mandates.

This is a valid question that does appear politically motivated. But, the downvoting does appear politically motivated. If we look at the from-state/to-state patterns, we may see evidence, one way or the other, that vaccine mandates cause healthcare workers to change jobs. We may see that the mandates do not cause any significant change. Any significant change (15% or more) in the number of healthcare workers can res…

You are not gonna get this type of data until years later, if ever. We don't have realtime regional data that is comprehensive, we have local anecdotes and then national data without regional breakdowns.

National data with regional breakdowns always lags by quite a bit, and unless there is institutional demand for such data, it just wont be collected at all.

One possibility is to look at BLS employment data by regions, but it's still really tricky to tease these types of effects out of that.

Re: Worn-out nurses hit the road for better pay, stressing hospital budgets, morale

#69

Post by senortumnus »

coliveira wrote: post #26
cogman10 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but that's really where this article should be focusing. Hospitals are basically at the "We tried nothing and we are out of ideas!" The solution to a lot of nurse burnout is really pretty simple, increase their wages, hire more than the minimum of travel nurses so they aren't all working overtime.

The capitalist oligarchy will prefer to destroy an industry rather than increase salaries. This is essentially what they did in the US (and around the world) when moving industry to low wage countries.

I do think there is truth in hospital systems slowly eroding the profession of nurse and physician to further cement their control over the future of health care. See traveler nurses and NP/PAs in hospital systems.

Re: Worn-out nurses hit the road for better pay, stressing hospital budgets, morale

#70

Post by cogman10 »

adolph wrote: post #19
cogman10 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but that's really where this article should be focusing. Hospitals are basically at the "We tried nothing and we are out of ideas!" The solution to a lot of nurse burnout is really pretty simple, increase their wages, hire more than the minimum of travel nurses so they aren't all working overtime.

Wages are orthogonal to burnout Burnout is a psychological factor

Imagine being a programmer earning 60k. Now imagine that your company has a time crunch, During that time crunch they are expecting you to work 80+ hours a week.

Now imagine that because of said crunch they say "Hmm, we need some contractors to speed this up." So they hire just enough to reduce your hours from 80 to 75.

Now imagine how you'd feel learning all those contractors are earning $120k and with your skill set, you could to if you left your employer (because there's a high demand for devs everywhere). Not only that, but you have a lot more flexibility in your hours and no longer need to do 80+ hour weeks.

What would you do?

Wage is a huge factor here and the nurses leaving aren't necessarily leaving nursing but instead turning into travel nurses. This creates the vicious cycle the hospitals are currently experiencing.

Hospitals have 2 levers to pull to fix this problem.

1. Increase wages so less nurses feel inclined to leave for more money. 2. Increase the number of travel nurses so current nurses aren't pressured into insane and demanding work hours.

The lever they are pulling instead, is "hire just enough travel nurses for minimal compliance (maybe) and buy little caesars pizza... maybe. Then complain to media outlets about how lazy nurses are."

The reason hospitals aren't fixing this problem is simple. Once they raise their nurses salaries, they will have a HARD time lowering them again.

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