Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#141

Post by lacker » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

meragrin_ wrote: post #123

lacker wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When U.S. workers did apply, the suit said, Facebook hired them into different jobs, reserving the open position for the H-1B worker. For what it's worth, as an ex-FB engineering manager, this isn't how Facebook works at all. 99% of software engineers are not hired into an "open position". Facebook hires all software engineers that pass the hiring process without regard to whether they are US citizens or not. Then, a…

> Unfortunately, immigration law seems to be written by people who had no familiarity with how modern large software engineering companies operate. Not really sure with how requiring "modern large software engineering companies" to hire qualified US citizens before hiring foreigners is somehow a burden to said companies. How is it harder to skip the H-1B process than to hire one of the US citizens? > Tech companies a…

When the position is "best people you can find", how can you argue a US citizen does not fulfill the requirements?

Because the 100 best people you can find aren't all US citizens, when their citizenship isn't relevant to the job. This law (and common sense) permits companies to hire for a highly paid job and to make the requirements so demanding that you have to look outside the US to hire enough people. That's exactly what is happening at the large "good" tech companies like Facebook or Google, and the same is true down to the mid size "good" tech companies like Airbnb or Stripe.

The real abusers of the immigration system are companies that are not bringing the best and brightest to the US, they are just trying to recruit immigrants so that they can offer lower wages.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#142

Post by davidw » Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #138

davidw wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> low skilled jobs Hard work is a skill in and of itself, that many of our ancestors who migrated here possessed - and not much else.

Except: 1. The population was low then, and the entire economic dynamic and need for immigrants was completely different than now. Laws change over time to reflect the current situation and should never remain static. 2. We already have existing ways for people to immigrate here legally outside of H1B that includes the low-skilled. 3. H1B was specifically designed for people who have skills that are difficult to grab…

> 2. We already have existing ways for people to immigrate here legally outside of H1B that includes the low-skilled.

You don't know much about immigration in the US.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#143

Post by verifyitnow » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

outworlder wrote: post #65

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need to prove that there are no US citizens able to fill the role before you sponsor a H1 visa. Pretty sure that's wrong; the requirement for an H1 is a LCA (Labor Condition Application) which is primarily a prevailing-wages thing along with some other labor condition items (e.g. there's not a strike ongoing at the location where you're trying to hire). Only companies flagged as H1 dependent or 'willful violato…

> Only companies flagged as H1 dependent or 'willful violators' need to certify that they've attempted to hire locally. Ok, maybe I'm wrong – I understand the initial process for L1B a bit better than H1B. Blanket L1 app, there was an _absolutely enormous_ document stack with all sorts of things(for a blanket L1). Including all the skills, and how many people satisfied those skills in the US. Also information how the…

facebook, having over 15% h1b in the us, was classified as h1b dependent.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#144

Post by verifyitnow » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #54

outworlder wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My understanding is its only before you can sponsor a visa. H1 transfers do not require such efforts. What do you mean H1 transfers? You need to prove that there are no US citizens able to fill the role before you sponsor a H1 visa. You also need to do the same thing again (only much more detailed, including prevailing wage determination yada yada) before you can sponsor for permanent residency. L1 (intra-company t…

> You need to prove that there are no US citizens able to fill the role before you sponsor a H1 visa. Pretty sure that's wrong; the requirement for an H1 is a LCA (Labor Condition Application) which is primarily a prevailing-wages thing along with some other labor condition items (e.g. there's not a strike ongoing at the location where you're trying to hire). Only companies flagged as H1 dependent or 'willful violato…

this is correct for facebook which is classified as h1b dependent.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#145

Post by verifyitnow » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

jorblumesea wrote: post #3

kfprt wrote: post #2

>The tech industry broadly relies on H-1B visas to plug gaps in their technical workforce, Does America not have schools or would Facebook rather just underpay foreigners? 14$ million is peanuts compared to the scope of H1B fraud.

For FB, the H1B is largely used for pretty smart people across the globe. Their talent bar is high and so are the salaries. It truly is bringing in the best and brightest from around the world. There's also the debate about how confusing/outdated the PERM process can be. For the WITCH companies, it's likely undercutting American talent. Which is why the lawsuit is so ridiculous, why not go after the real perpetrators…

wrong. At facebook, which is classified as h1b dependent having over 15% foreign nationals, and likely over 50% foreign nationals there is corruption. Virtually all interviews and hiring decisions are made by h1b foreign nationals. It is ludicrous to say they would fairly evaluate US citizens who do not support immigration which is supplying thezs h1bs with $300k per year jobs.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#146

Post by mmarq » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 10:25 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #140

mmarq wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anybody could work in tech or law or medicine, programmers and lawyers and doctors would be paid no more than cleaners, which can be replaced by a rando in a matter of days if not hours (read: the population is absolutely fungible). What makes tech special, compared to other high-paying sectors, is that there is almost no barrier to entry. You don't need to spend 10 years in medical school or to pass a bar exam: m…

To be fair, learning to program is something you do on your own time, and possibly with a lot of your own money (whether to a CS degree program or a bootcamp). In a job training regime, learning to program would be not just free, but itself a solidly compensated full time job.

All you need to learn to program is a computer, an internet connection (a 56kbps dialup is good enough) and certain intellectual aptitudes (such as motivation, an average intelligence, etc...). Almost everybody who has these characteristics is already a software developer or a doctor or a lawyer or an accountant or you name what, or they are too young to get a job. Mind, I haven't written "everybody", I'm sure there are some people who, for whatever reason, have been unlucky and ended up in low paid jobs, but the notion that we have a treasure trove of potential scientists and software developers and doctors in Job Centers' queues is patently absurd.

On job training regimes, universities and bootcamps don't do a great job at training developers, and almost everybody spends their first 2-3 years effectively in an informal on-the-job training regime.