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Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

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Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#121

Post by UncleMeat »

kfprt wrote: post #45
Jensson wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High skill immigrants are net pay tax payers, they help reduce the need to tax you.

That's not what I'm saying. If a company hires a foreigner instead of an American then that American doesn't have a job. If they don't have a job they are unemployed. If they are unemployed then they are a net cost to me the taxpayer. If we reduce unemployment we reduce the tax burden.

Software engineers create more software engineering jobs. Hiring a foreigner doesn't leave a gap for an American.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#122

Post by kfprt »

lacker wrote: post #120
kfprt wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't companies also use the 6 years that they employ a foreigner to train an American worker to fill the position? A bachelors program is only 4 years and the company could sponsor it if they were in such desperate need.

Couldn't companies also use the 6 years that they employ a foreigner to train an American worker to fill the position? The large tech companies are hiring thousands of software engineers each year and just want the best talent they can get. Maybe 75% of them hired to work in the US are US citizens. Sure, you can train new people, and they do train new people all the time. But you won't be able to get the same quality…

> The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals

Large tech companies employ millions, they can't all be the best. Tech workers aren't special, they're fungible. The H1B program exists for temporary shortages but has been abused as an immigration program which it was never designed for.

I'm fine with a fee based program but make it $1M. $10k is peanuts. If they're as special as the companies claim then they'll be happy to pay it.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#123

Post by meragrin_ »

lacker wrote: post #113
a-and wrote: post #49

In this thread there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding regarding both the Permanent/Temporary visa distinction, as well as what Facebook did. The lawsuit refers to the Permanent Labor Certification process - the process of certifying that a position cannot be filled by a US citizen. This is one of the first early steps of an employer sponsoring an employee for a Green Card (so called immigrant visas, not H1-B). I…

When U.S. workers did apply, the suit said, Facebook hired them into different jobs, reserving the open position for the H-1B worker. For what it's worth, as an ex-FB engineering manager, this isn't how Facebook works at all. 99% of software engineers are not hired into an "open position". Facebook hires all software engineers that pass the hiring process without regard to whether they are US citizens or not. Then, a…

> Unfortunately, immigration law seems to be written by people who had no familiarity with how modern large software engineering companies operate.

Not really sure with how requiring "modern large software engineering companies" to hire qualified US citizens before hiring foreigners is somehow a burden to said companies. How is it harder to skip the H-1B process than to hire one of the US citizens?

> Tech companies are essentially forced to make up "positions" for the purposes of immigration law.

If you don't have positions, why are you hiring? They aren't sitting around twiddling their thumbs just collecting a paycheck, are they? If you don't know where the H-1Bs are going to be, how do you know a US citizen is not qualified for the position the H-1B ends up in?

> There is just no way to make a company "first consider US citizens for every open job" when you don't hire one person at a time for separate jobs. What does that even mean when you are trying to hire 100 people a week, and you just want to hire the 100 best people you can find every week?

Um, you hire the best 100 US citizens and forget the H-1B process? Is it really that difficult? If you have a specific position which you can't seem to fill, train someone? Still can't fill it, then go through H-1B? How/why is hiring via H-1B the default? That is the baffling thing.

> This law fundamentally has an incoherent goal.

Really? It seems pretty clear the intention is to force companies to hire US citizens when there is someone which can fill the position. When the position is "best people you can find", how can you argue a US citizen does not fulfill the requirements?

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#124

Post by nrmitchi »

meragrin_ wrote: post #123
lacker wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When U.S. workers did apply, the suit said, Facebook hired them into different jobs, reserving the open position for the H-1B worker. For what it's worth, as an ex-FB engineering manager, this isn't how Facebook works at all. 99% of software engineers are not hired into an "open position". Facebook hires all software engineers that pass the hiring process without regard to whether they are US citizens or not. Then, a…

> Unfortunately, immigration law seems to be written by people who had no familiarity with how modern large software engineering companies operate. Not really sure with how requiring "modern large software engineering companies" to hire qualified US citizens before hiring foreigners is somehow a burden to said companies. How is it harder to skip the H-1B process than to hire one of the US citizens? > Tech companies a…

I think you're missing the point that there is no H1B being "hired over" a US citizen. Facebook, and most other FAANG at this point, are going to hire everyone that they reasonable can.

In the current environment, if you work in tech, and don't have a job at Facebook/FAANG, there is a reason. There are tons of possible reasons. An immigrant "taking your job" is definitely not that reason.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#125

Post by Zigurd »

nrmitchi wrote: post #115
closeparen wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1B is supposed to be about guest workers for short-term needs. Treating H1Bs as long-term career staffers who are going to buy houses, have kids, climb the ladder, etc. in the way that FAANG do, is a different kind of misuse, but it's also not in keeping with the spirit of the program.

An H1B is only "valid" for 3 years. It can be extended once for an additional 3 years. It being FAANG doesn't change that. Your argument appears to be against the fact that additional extensions are possible after an an individual has filed for permanent residency, but the process is delayed (often by a completely inhumane amount of time). So your problem isn't so much with the H1B visa, but with the fact that people…

At 6 years the employer can help get them a green card, which if they are within the letter and spirit of workers they can't find at any price in the US, is perfectly fine.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#126

Post by kfprt »

nrmitchi wrote: post #115
closeparen wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1B is supposed to be about guest workers for short-term needs. Treating H1Bs as long-term career staffers who are going to buy houses, have kids, climb the ladder, etc. in the way that FAANG do, is a different kind of misuse, but it's also not in keeping with the spirit of the program.

An H1B is only "valid" for 3 years. It can be extended once for an additional 3 years. It being FAANG doesn't change that. Your argument appears to be against the fact that additional extensions are possible after an an individual has filed for permanent residency, but the process is delayed (often by a completely inhumane amount of time). So your problem isn't so much with the H1B visa, but with the fact that people…

The green card infinite extension is just a bug in the system. H1B was very much supposed to be a temporary program while the company can train an American. It's almost entirely misuse bar a few PhD's.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#127

Post by kfprt »

Zigurd wrote: post #125
nrmitchi wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An H1B is only "valid" for 3 years. It can be extended once for an additional 3 years. It being FAANG doesn't change that. Your argument appears to be against the fact that additional extensions are possible after an an individual has filed for permanent residency, but the process is delayed (often by a completely inhumane amount of time). So your problem isn't so much with the H1B visa, but with the fact that people…

At 6 years the employer can help get them a green card, which if they are within the letter and spirit of workers they can't find at any price in the US, is perfectly fine.

They can apply for a green card but they're never going to get it if they're from India or China. I don't think this was anticipated when the law was written.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#128

Post by closeparen »

kfprt wrote: post #105
closeparen wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intelligence and conscientiousness required to do high-end software engineering work may well be uniformly distributed. But I think we're probably at a point where there's more capital looking to hire people like this, than there are Americans like this.

So most Americans are lazy and stupid? Only 7.7% of Americans work in tech, what about the other 92.3%, what are they? Note that's 7.7% of the workforce not population. https://connect.comptia.org/content/research/cyberstates-202...

I would be surprised if as many as 7% of the people in my high school and undergraduate physics classes had plausible futures as physicists. I certainly didn't. It was maybe three individuals. That doesn't make the rest of us lazy or dumb, it just makes us not physicists.

The faculties for software engineering are not quite so rare, but I would argue there's a similar dynamic going on.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#129

Post by nrmitchi »

kfprt wrote: post #126
nrmitchi wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An H1B is only "valid" for 3 years. It can be extended once for an additional 3 years. It being FAANG doesn't change that. Your argument appears to be against the fact that additional extensions are possible after an an individual has filed for permanent residency, but the process is delayed (often by a completely inhumane amount of time). So your problem isn't so much with the H1B visa, but with the fact that people…

The green card infinite extension is just a bug in the system. H1B was very much supposed to be a temporary program while the company can train an American. It's almost entirely misuse bar a few PhD's.

So your problem is with allowing companies to sponsor Permanent Residency applications at all?

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#130

Post by closeparen »

kfprt wrote: post #116
mmarq wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We would be lying to ourselves if we pretended that we could turn all the Jobseeker’s Allowance material into software developers with some training, just for the sake of not hiring a Mexican or a Rumanian.

Do we need everyone to be a software developer or just a few more? I'm sure we could increase the numbers if we actually tried.

Software engineers today are not just doing ROI positive work, but extremely ROI positive work. Our collective contribution the economy would not be maximized until the point where even the most marginally useful projects could get competently staffed. We are very far from that world.
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