Earlier quoted context omitted.
Very simple: thermal budget. Chip performance is limited by thermal budget. You just can't spend more than roughly 100W in a single package, without going into very expensive and esoteric cooling mechanisms.
As the charts Apple shared in the event showed, you hit diminishing returns in performance/watt pretty quickly. Sure. It'd be tough to be the top performing chip in the market, but you can get pretty close.
Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors
951–960 of 1001 posts
Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors
#952Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors
#953"Apple’s Commitment to the Environment" > Today, Apple is carbon neutral for global corporate operations, and by 2030, plans to have net-zero climate impact across the entire business, which includes manufacturing supply chains and all product life cycles. This also means that every chip Apple creates, from design to manufacturing, will be 100 percent carbon neutral. But what they won't do is put the chip in an expan…
Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors
#954"Apple’s Commitment to the Environment" > Today, Apple is carbon neutral for global corporate operations, and by 2030, plans to have net-zero climate impact across the entire business, which includes manufacturing supply chains and all product life cycles. This also means that every chip Apple creates, from design to manufacturing, will be 100 percent carbon neutral. But what they won't do is put the chip in an expan…
You can always put your money where your mouth is and support someone that is doing all of the above: https://frame.work/
Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors
#955Earlier quoted context omitted.
RISC is a big part of it, and enabled the biggest part, which is Apple got to design their own SoC. And they have their own OS, so they can cause a complete paradigm shift without having to wait for the OS company/collective to come around.
RISC means nothing except "looks like MIPS" and has little impact on performance. ARMv8 doesn't look that much like MIPS anyway.
Now there are two approaches to the performance argument.
First, I will argue that RISC processors provide better performance than CISC processors.
Second, the counter argument to that is that, actually, no, modern RISC processors are just as Complex as CISC processors, and M1 is faster simply because Apple. My second argument is that Apple choose ARM because of RISC. So even if it were true, now, that one could build a CISC that is just as performant as a RISC, the fact that right now, the most performant chip is a RISC is ultimately because it is a RISC.
Do RISC processors provide better performance than CISC? The #1 supercomputer in the world uses ARM. AWS's Graviton offers better price and performance than AWS Intel. M1 is faster power/performance than any x86. ARM holds all the records. But it's just a coincidence?
I think PP's position is that CISC or RISC doesn't matter. One argument I've heard is that its the 5nm production node that matters, and that CISC or RISC, it's all the same nowadays.
So how is Apple on 5nm? Why are the CISC manufacturers stuck on 7nm (or failing to get even there)? When the Acorn Computer team were looking for a new processor, they were inspired by the UC Berkeley and their RISC architecture. In particular, the were inspired by the fact that students were designing processors. They decided that they, too, could build a new CPU if they used RISC, and that was the Acorn RISC Machine. The ARM. I do not believe that RISC and CISC are "basically the same" when it comes to processor design. The fact that Intel is still stuck on 10nm(?) must in part be due to the thing being CISC. One might argue that it's because they made a particularly complicated CISC, but that would only make my point for me. I don't think that "only the instruction decoder is simpler so it doesn't make much difference" holds any water. I would love to hear from actual CPU designers who have worked on M1 or Graviton, but if they said "RISC is easier" then they would be dismissed as biased.
But let's suppose that no, actually, the geniuses at Apple could equally create a CISC CPU that would be just as performant, I'd still argue that the success is because of RISC. M1 is the most recent of a long line of ARM CPUs. They are ARM CPUs because the first in that long line needed battery life - the Newton. M1 is ARM because ARM was RISC when RISC mattered. You may argue that RISC doesn't provide a benefit over CISC now, but it certainly did then.
And how does Apple have such geniuses? Again, this is largely because the iPhone was perhaps the largest technological step-change in history. They have the market cap they do because of iPhone, and they have iPhone because RISC. So even if the argument is "Well, the M1 is fast because Apple has lots of money" well that is because of RISC.
But I still think that its easier to build a faster CPU with RISC, and I expect the first RISC Mac Pro will prove me right. At which point, RISC will own performance/watt, performance/price, #1 supercomputer, and, at last, fastest desktop.
Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors
#956Earlier quoted context omitted.
Blender has strong use case in the animation and movie ecosystems. RenderMan, Pixar has some strong connections with Jobs and in turn with Blender, games may not really be in their radar for Blender sponsorship. Besides supporting creator workflows (Final Cut Pro, best in class laptop graphics, Blender etc) doesn't mean they want to directly support gamers as buyers, just that they believe creators who produce games…
The M1 Pro & Max CPUs are approaching dedicated Laptop GPU levels, so Minis will be a reasonable low/mid-end game machine, comparable to the best PC gaming laptops. The M* Mac Pros will start out with built-in graphics starting at the M1 Max level and going 4 or perhaps 8x higher, still using integrated graphics. The fact that Apple now supports $5K dedicated graphics cards on the pro series suggests that the pro M*…
Delivery dates are even now within 1 week after shipping starts (Nov 3-10), so demand seems within their initial estimates.
Hardware is not only reason gaming is not strong on Mac. Microsoft had a decent hardware and software offering for their Nokia phones in the later years, that didn't help them.
It will take ecosystem of developers investing years of effort in building a deep catalog. Game publishers are not going to risk spending that kind of effort unless there is already enough of market for large titles to recover the money, while this can grow organically, to compete with MS who have XBox as well as dominance in PC gaming, Apple will need to be active in their attempt.
A lot of effort in dev community engagement, incentivize publishers to release on their platform, get exclusive deals etc. After all this, it still may fail. Apple has not shown any interest in even trying to do that so far.
Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors
#957I am in the market for a new laptop and bit skeptic for M1 Chips. Could anyone please tell me how is this not a "premium high performance Chromebook" ? Why should I buy this and not Dell XPS machine if I will be using it for web development/Android Development/C#/DevOps. Might soon mess with machine learning
That's a debate between OSX and alternatives, the M1 has little to do with that. Except maybe the Rosetta for unsupported x86, but I doubt that'll cause you any issues. Edit: C# support is there on OSX, Rider has Apple Silicon builds and .net core is cross platform now. ML is probably a let down and you'll be stuck to CPU sized workloads, that being said the M1 does pretty well compared to other x86 CPU
Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors
#958Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Last I heard, there were graphics driver issues left to iron out. Who cares in a server ?
I assume because so far the only devices released with M1 processors have been consumer devices with attached screens, the focus has been on bringing over the full graphical, desktop Linux experience to it, not just headless server linux.
Re: Apple’s new M1 Pro and M1 Max processors
#959Earlier quoted context omitted.
What image dimensions? What app? I find this extremely suspect, but it’s plausible if you’ve way undersold what you’re doing. 24Mpixel 16bit RAW image would have no problem generally on an 4gb machine if it’s truly the only app running and the app isn’t shit. ;)
I shoot timelapse using Canon 5D RAW images, I don't know the exact dimensions off the top of my head but greater than 5000px wide. I then grade them using various programs, ultimately using After Effects to render out full frame ProRes 4444. After Effects was running out of memory. It would crash and fail to render my file. It would display an error message that told me specifically it was out of memory. I increased…
The facts were suspect, your follow up is further proof I had good reason to be suspect. First off, the RAW images from a 5D aren’t 16 bit. ;) Importantly, the out of memory error had nothing to do with the “16 bit RAW files”, it was video rendering lots of high res images that was the issue which is a very different issue and of course lots of RAM is needed there. Anyway, notice I said “but it’s plausible if you’ve way undersold what you’re doing”, which is definitely the case here, so I’m not sure why it bothered you.