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Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

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Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#331

Post by yololol »

texasbigdata wrote: post #220
yololol wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While criticism can be good when constructive, I think these comments are a bit dramatic and make way too many assumptions. I would expect that it's more financially lucrative to have a happy userbase, which translates to a good reputation and thus larger user-base, rather rip-off a few who will eventually give bad reviews and create a bad reputation. To me the current pricing model sounds more like a bad decision ra…

If you worked towards the higher standard, of trying to avoid even the potential appearance of inappropriate action, you would never do what they did. Deep down do you believe that they would have changed if not for this public outcry? Make it free for 30 days THEN throw up a pay screen. You're a funded startup what's the issue here?

Agreed, and that's what I would expect too. In fact, if the app works as they claim to be, users would rush to subscribe after the 30 day trial. Yet, criticism doesn't necessarily need to be accompanied with unjustified accusations and demands. I find this attitude to be a very common pattern nowadays. Criticism can be constructive and to the point without any of these.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#332

Post by yololol »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #257
yololol wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While criticism can be good when constructive, I think these comments are a bit dramatic and make way too many assumptions. I would expect that it's more financially lucrative to have a happy userbase, which translates to a good reputation and thus larger user-base, rather rip-off a few who will eventually give bad reviews and create a bad reputation. To me the current pricing model sounds more like a bad decision ra…

> To me the current pricing model sounds more like a bad decision rather than anything else. I'd ordinarily be willing to believe that, but I can't stop thinking: this is a service with a very specific target market - people with a condition whose defining characteristic is being vulnerable to be exploited through the exact payment model that Inflow has chosen. To accept this as a honest mistake is to believe that th…

Quite possibly. But still, what happened to personal responsibility? Having ADHD does it mean I have no judgement at all. If I evaluated the risk of forgetting is too high, I could choose not to subscribe in the first place. Or if I still think this app is important enough, I could make sure I find another way to be reminded to cancel.

What I mainly question is the demand culture, that a lot of users have towards developers - even towards people voluntarily put their time to do opensource work.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#333

Post by samhw »

chownie wrote: post #330
samhw wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never proposed they make it free of charge. I said the best model for their community is free and open source. I ... they're the same picture ...

It must be 2006 again because we're having arguments online about the word free. Usually the word free in "free and open source" is libre, as in freedom, not free beer.

Yes, but not when we're explicitly talking about how to monetise their product.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#334

Post by what_is_orcas »

JohnBooty wrote: post #327
what_is_orcas wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, how the heck do you reconcile this with your stance that people shouldn't try and make money from their apps? I think I addressed this in my other reply, but I'll reiterate: given the economic system we exist in, I'm not against people making money from their apps, I'm against certain areas better suited to public works being entered by the private sector (especially in a predatory way). > I would say, "if yo…

Do I think capitalism is viable in the long run? No. But I also think it is a fool's errand to wait for a revolution, Amen! Honestly, I might wait for or work towards a revolution, but I suspect that whatever replaces capitalism is likely to be a lot worse. Power coalesces, even in well-intentioned and theoretically more egalitarian systems. Their historical track record is not great. I think my thoughts get a little…

You bring up a lot of valid questions and points, and I really appreciate the conversation!

> Let's assume that Inflow is (a) actually effective and (b) they drop the questionable opt-out subscription model. Both big assumptions. I have not used the app and am skeptical to say the least. But lets assume it delivers legitimate value/relief/etc.

These are big ifs, particularly because the incentive systems are misaligned. The incentive of the creators are profitability and growth while the incentive of the user is to manage their ADHD.

Ethics, especially concerning survival in the throes of capitalism, are complicated. I question private sector solutions for public sector problems largely because money speaks in politics and I think having money established in an area makes it _harder_ for the public sector to get involved in that area.

> So, how should this app have been created? How would its creators be paid prior to the app earning money?

Putting aside the fact that this app can't diagnose someone, can't provide alternative therapies (pharmaceutical, non-CBT if CBT isn't working, etc.), growth and profitability are not "helping users". I said this elsewhere: if this _is_ going to exist, it should be funded through something like Patreon, where payment is optional and generally is more tied to the app being functional and beneficial (users who love the service are more likely to pay, while those who do not, lose nothing but their time).

> And I was extremely privileged to even be able to do that...

You raise a really good point that I've been wrestling with a lot lately. The ability to not-charge up front is a position of privilege that locks out a lot of folks (e.g. if one is living paycheck-to-paycheck working 2 jobs, they might not be able to afford to take the time to create the next unicorn app that could put food on their plate forever). I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I have answers. I have a friend asking how to ethically be a landlord, and I can't answer her either.

(as an aside: I'd love to spend some of my time just making apps for folks without my privilege, sort of 'pass on' my privilege to those who might need it, but I'm honestly not sure how that would realistically work or how to get started.)

One of my friends likes to remind me that there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, in response to which I wonder: how feasible is ethical production under a system with no ethical consumption?

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#335

Post by dumbfoundded »

comprev wrote: post #329
dumbfoundded wrote: post #292

Please shut this down or pivot. This isn't a mindfulness or meditation app. It's a serious medical issue to which you're presenting an untested solution. If I created a new pill and said it helps ADHD, I would be shutdown. You're doing this with an app. You hope it will work but really you don't know. I started and sold a CBD business and the entire time, we made sure to never claim that it cures or helps any medical…

Doctor of Philosophy not Medicine I seem to remember from a previous reply.

If that's true, I think YC has a responsibility to shut this down. Potential customers will clearly make the same mistake I did.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#336

Post by drgeorgesachs »

Igelau wrote: post #175
throwanem wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Billing an entire annual subscription up front, as opposed to monthly, seems especially questionable. What if the therapy doesn't work? What if it's so badly implemented that it can't work? You're still out a hundred bucks just the same, and that's just in the first year. edit: There is also a monthly subscription option, in the Apple app store at least. It's $22 a month - so over twice as much as the annual. This do…

> Sachs is a Psy.D, not an MD. Granted, this does entitle him to "Dr." as a term of address, just as would a doctorate in physics, ancient history, or underwater basket-weaving. But, just as with any of those, it doesn't qualify him as a doctor in the generally understood sense. Indeed, I've had better help from a LCSW than a Psy.D, and I never called the social worker "Dr."

A LCSW is not a doctor in the US but a psychologist is.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#337

Post by drgeorgesachs »

rubylark wrote: post #60
what_is_orcas wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, reading the description, it's hard not to get a little concerned: "a start up that's going to try to make money off of folks with ADHD" isn't a great starting place. I think this is sort of a broader start-up problem. Some things shouldn't be monetized (period, but for the sake of the audience, I'll add: at least not as aggressively as is required for a start-up).

Here's a counter argument: "a company making money off of folks with ____" describes the entirety of the Biomed industry. Every medical device is sold with the intention of helping people with medical issues, but they can't be free. The cost of development and production has to be covered by somebody (be that by the government, medical insurance, or private party). If it wasn't, the company making the device wouldn't…

So true.
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