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Colin Powell has died

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Re: Colin Powell has died

#171

Post by sofixa »

betterunix2 wrote: post #163
sofixa wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the Allies comitted war crimes in WWII, i don't see how that matters for modern war criminals. Conspiracy against peace is a real war crime, including in the US.

I guess you and I must disagree. Either you think war crimes are no big deal, because according to your broad reading of "conspiracy against peace" pretty much anyone who participates in any war is a criminal, or else you think there is no justifiable war whatsoever. Personally I think WWII was entirely justified, that the Allies had to win that war, and that fighting to win meant that large numbers of people would d…

I'll quote the definition for you:

> crime against peace, in international law, is "planning, preparation, initiation, or waging of wars of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances, or participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing".[1] This definition of crimes against peace was first incorporated into the Nuremberg Principles and later included in the United Nations Charter. This definition would play a part in defining aggression as a crime against peace. It can also refer to the core international crimes set out in Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, and the crime of aggression), which adopted crimes negotiated previously in the Draft code of crimes against the peace and security of mankind.

> An important exception to the foregoing are defensive military actions taken under Article 51 of the UN Charter. Such defensive actions are subject to immediate Security Council review, but do not require UN permission to be legal within international law. "Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations." (UN Charter, Article 51) The Security Council will determine if the action is legally the "right of individual or collective self-defence", or it may appoint another UN organ to do this.

Meaning that defensive wars are OK. Conspiring against the peace, aka waging a war of aggression, is not. Which is why the Allies fighting against the Axis aren't war criminals for being in the war, but for their actions there ( unrestricted submarine warfare, the Laconia incident, the bombings of civilian targets including Nuremberg, etc.). The Axis' war crimes including them starting the wars ( against Poland, Soviet Union, Greece, Yugoslavia, etc.) and their despicable behaviour in them ( Holocaust, treatment of civilians and POWs, bombing of civilian targets, etc).

Re: Colin Powell has died

#172

Post by nickthemagicman »

I find it very disengenuous for the news media to claim he died of Covid when he had multiple myeloma and was on heavy doses of chemo which damaged his immune immune system.

The NYTimes has been the only source I've seen reporting this correctly.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#173

Post by Kafkish »

dkarl wrote: post #141
_3ddw wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was 17 when we invaded Afghanistan and 19 when we invaded Iraq. Through the lead-up to both of those conflicts I remember watching scores of demonstrators marching outside the White House, chanting slogans against the wars. What did they know that Colin Powell did not?

You would have been 7 when Desert Storm happened, then. Desert Storm is an episode that will probably be classified as a historical anomaly in hindsight, but in 2001, it was our most recent large-scale military action. Desert Storm was limited, focused, and... wait for the 1990s SNL joke you might be too young to remember... "prudent." Whether it was a good idea or not, whether it accomplished anything positive or no…

The 2003 Iraq war was, most people now know, based on a lie. What most people didn't know, and still don't know, is that Desert Storm itself was based on a lie. Like the 2003 lie, it backfired. It's a long story, but if reading what the US ambassador to Iraq at that time told Saddam will point you in the right direction. She's died years ago, but her name is April Catherine Glaspie [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie

Re: Colin Powell has died

#174

Post by sofixa »

betterunix2 wrote: post #164
sofixa wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that' a war crime, specifically "crime against peace". A really cut and dry case of war criminal. Too bad he didn't face trial and spend any time in prison.

That is an absurdly broad reading of "crimes against peace," so much so that you are just diluting the meaning of "war crimes."

> A crime against peace, in international law, is "planning, preparation, initiation, or waging of wars of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances, or participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing

That's pretty much the definition of crimes against peace.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#176

Post by dragonwriter »

tarsinge wrote: post #166
specialist wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What did they know that Colin Powell did not? Rhetorical question? WRT Iraq, it was public knowledge that: a) Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, indeed Iraq and al Qaeda were idealogical opponents. b) Iraq had no "weapons of mass destruction"; cite Hans Blix, others. c) Iraqi leader Hussein had completely capitulated, meaning GWB had effectively won without firing a single shot. d) Bush Admin and their sources were…

Insightful comment. Regarding: > Many pointed out the advocates for invading Iraq, mostly the neo-cons Don’t forget Biden who ultimately co signed the act.

Biden voted for the act which required Bush to make certain determinations, which he did in bad faith. While we can (and I did at the time) argue that the bad faith was predictable, supporting the law is still different than actively perpetrating the bad faith determination to initiate the war.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#177

Post by q1w2 »

_3ddw wrote: post #144
koheripbal wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The invasion of Afghanistan should not be lumped in with Iraq. The first had broad public support in both parties and in the public. ... over 90%. As well as support from NATO, the EU, and many other nations as it was an operation to get Osama Bin Laden after 9/11. The invasion of Iraq was far more controversial and motivated by oil politics. They are completely different animals.

> The invasion of Afghanistan should not be lumped in with Iraq. > The first had broad public support in both parties and in the public. ... over 90% Certainly. But that is exactly what leaders are for: Good leaders worth mourning transform knowledge and sage wisdom into actions that should sometimes run counter to popular public will, and do not always bow under public pressure. Good leaders guide their people away…

Invading Afghanistan to destroy Al-Qaeda after 9/11 was probably the correct decision.

Staying there for 20 years, on the other hand, including after killing Osama Bin Laden on the other hand... That probably had more to do with having US soldiers on both the Chinese and Iranian borders. ...which is also probably why they both quietly supported the insurgency with Pakistan.

Re: Colin Powell has died

#178

Post by belter »

tarsinge wrote: post #166
specialist wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What did they know that Colin Powell did not? Rhetorical question? WRT Iraq, it was public knowledge that: a) Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, indeed Iraq and al Qaeda were idealogical opponents. b) Iraq had no "weapons of mass destruction"; cite Hans Blix, others. c) Iraqi leader Hussein had completely capitulated, meaning GWB had effectively won without firing a single shot. d) Bush Admin and their sources were…

Insightful comment. Regarding: > Many pointed out the advocates for invading Iraq, mostly the neo-cons Don’t forget Biden who ultimately co signed the act.

And Tony Blair...

Re: Colin Powell has died

#179

Post by dragonwriter »

_3ddw wrote: post #63
CapricornNoble wrote: post #24

Colin Powell is a textbook case of "A thousand 'Atta-boys!' and one fuck-up!". He joined the Army in the 1950s, served through 2 tours in Vietnam, and made it all the way to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs by the end of the 1980s, leading the military through Operation Desert Storm and the post-Soviet era. That's a rare career for ANY American, let alone a black one. But all that went "poof!" after his shameful performa…

I was 17 when we invaded Afghanistan and 19 when we invaded Iraq. Through the lead-up to both of those conflicts I remember watching scores of demonstrators marching outside the White House, chanting slogans against the wars. What did they know that Colin Powell did not?

> What did they know that Colin Powell did not?

Nothing.

What they knew that Colin Powell also knew was that Colin Powell was lying. Many of the lies weer debunked, in near real time, by the major press (and/or UN weapons inspectors), not just showing that the claims were false but also the specific indications that the US government knew them to be false..?

Re: Colin Powell has died

#180

Post by 1cvmask »

NoGravitas wrote: post #109
CapricornNoble wrote: post #24

Colin Powell is a textbook case of "A thousand 'Atta-boys!' and one fuck-up!". He joined the Army in the 1950s, served through 2 tours in Vietnam, and made it all the way to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs by the end of the 1980s, leading the military through Operation Desert Storm and the post-Soviet era. That's a rare career for ANY American, let alone a black one. But all that went "poof!" after his shameful performa…

This is your reminder that being assigned to cover up the My Lai massacre was the thing that really jumpstarted Powell's career. His 2003 UN speech was part and parcel of what his career was built on. Reference: http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/colin3.html Edited to add: he also appears to have lied under oath about his knowledge of the Iran-Contra affair. Ref: https://consortiumnews.com/2000/121900b.html

The NY Times and Washington Post also refused to publish the My Lai massacre before an unknown at the time freelance journalist Seymour Hersh broke the story in the western press more than a year after. There are also a great visuals of the massacre in the Ken Burns documentary Vietnam War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mỹ_Lai_massacre#Media_coverage

Two major national news press outlets — The New York Times and The Washington Post, received some tips with partial information but did not act on them.

Ridenhour called Seymour Hersh on 22 October 1969. The freelance investigative journalist conducted an independent inquiry, and published to break the wall of silence that was surrounding the Mỹ Lai massacre. Hersh initially tried to sell the story to Life and Look magazines; both turned it down. Hersh went to the small, Washington-based Dispatch News Service, which sent it to fifty major American newspapers; thirty accepted it for publication.[157] New York Times reporter Henry Kamm investigated further and found several survivors of the Mỹ Lai massacre in Sou

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