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Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

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Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#31

Post by theK »

reginold wrote: post #25
theK wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are a number of fallacies in this white paper. For one, energy consumed by pow is just spent energy, it does not contribute to societal development. Also, this sort of consumer specific investment disregards society because it disregards where society needs the energy (since society is not the target group). On another hand, this whole paper seems very short sighted and rand-ish. The fact of the matter…

> energy consumed by pow is just spent energy, it does not contribute to societal development Can you explain more about what you mean by this? Would the same apply to a gallon of gas burned in a car for example?

Well, you need to compare the societal impact one BTC tx has vs the societal impact the equivalent energy consumption in mobility (you example) has. If my calculations aren't off, a bitcoin tx is the equivalent of your days mobility assuming a suburban commute in an EV and all externalities (groceries, kids etc) so yeah, investing that energy in being mobile makes more sense than doing btc txs

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#32

Post by pornel »

ac29 wrote: post #24
literallyaduck wrote: post #22

Even if energy was free to mine, the hardware manufacturing for the GPUs would be problematic.

Bitcoin mining hasnt used GPUs in a long time. Its worse - it uses fully custom ASICs that still take up fab time and raw materials, but when they are no longer economical to run, they cant be reused for anything else.

Ultimately, PoW systems have to hit a scarce resource.

If power became free, it'd change into a race for chips. If we figured out super cheap ways of making chips, the endless race would move to building factories or repurposing land for the whole system. It has to grow until it hits something hard to grow further.

Security of the system depends on using so much resources all the time that an attacker can't waste resources any faster.

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#33

Post by ashtonkem »

bloqs wrote: post #27
reginold wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> energy consumed by pow is just spent energy, it does not contribute to societal development Can you explain more about what you mean by this? Would the same apply to a gallon of gas burned in a car for example?

Proof of work is computing. Like any computing, like your home PC or laptop, running an application costs electricity, and perhaps slightly warms its nearby vicinity. A gallon of gas or a battery in a car may have a similar impact. A gallon of gas may have further negative externalities like the destruction of the atmosphere etc.

But a gallon of gas does something useful; it enables someone to be mobile and go about their daily activities.

Bitcoin is fundamentally a casino. It’s only legitimate function is betting on a number that’s not connected with anything else, also known as gambling. The energy we spend there does much less for a society than allowing people to move around and go about their daily lives.

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#34

Post by reginold »

ashtonkem wrote: post #33
bloqs wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proof of work is computing. Like any computing, like your home PC or laptop, running an application costs electricity, and perhaps slightly warms its nearby vicinity. A gallon of gas or a battery in a car may have a similar impact. A gallon of gas may have further negative externalities like the destruction of the atmosphere etc.

But a gallon of gas does something useful; it enables someone to be mobile and go about their daily activities. Bitcoin is fundamentally a casino. It’s only legitimate function is betting on a number that’s not connected with anything else, also known as gambling. The energy we spend there does much less for a society than allowing people to move around and go about their daily lives.

Ah yes, if bitcoin is useless them by definition all the energy is waste. That "if is important. It all comes down to "what is the value of bitcoin".

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#35

Post by reginold »

theK wrote: post #31
reginold wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> energy consumed by pow is just spent energy, it does not contribute to societal development Can you explain more about what you mean by this? Would the same apply to a gallon of gas burned in a car for example?

Well, you need to compare the societal impact one BTC tx has vs the societal impact the equivalent energy consumption in mobility (you example) has. If my calculations aren't off, a bitcoin tx is the equivalent of your days mobility assuming a suburban commute in an EV and all externalities (groceries, kids etc) so yeah, investing that energy in being mobile makes more sense than doing btc txs

What is the value of a bitcoin transaction?

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#36

Post by reginold »

RedBeetDeadpool wrote: post #29
reginold wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Square has written a memo titled "Bitcoin is Key to an Abundant, Clean Energy Future". What are your thoughts on the piece? https://squareup.com/us/en/press/bcei-white-paper

I have to start out by saying there are a lot of creative people looking to make money, and am humbled reading the paper. Its definitely a little on the optimistic side, but its an interesting idea. > Bitcoin miners are unique energy buyers in that they offer highly flexible and easily interruptible load, provide payout in a globally liquid cryptocurrency, and are completely location agnostic, requiring only an inter…

Appreciate your perspective from reading the paper.

Agreed this seems hard to pin down.

For those like me not familiar with the term "brown energy": "energy produced from polluting sources as a contrast to green energy from renewable, non-polluting source"

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#37

Post by ashtonkem »

reginold wrote: post #34
ashtonkem wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a gallon of gas does something useful; it enables someone to be mobile and go about their daily activities. Bitcoin is fundamentally a casino. It’s only legitimate function is betting on a number that’s not connected with anything else, also known as gambling. The energy we spend there does much less for a society than allowing people to move around and go about their daily lives.

Ah yes, if bitcoin is useless them by definition all the energy is waste. That "if is important. It all comes down to "what is the value of bitcoin".

Not what is the value of bitcoin, what is the use of bitcoin. What function does it fill for a society in order to justify the energy expenditure? Manipulating a dollar value of something is apparently trivial to do, just look at the wild fluctuations in bitcoins price.

So far the resounding answer has been “number go up”. Well, that and crime if we’re being honest.

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#38

Post by webinvest »

RedBeetDeadpool wrote: post #2

Dorsey's giving out some narrative of reducing pollution by making mining more efficient. This has to be him just saying things the media wants to hear, because that simply doesn't work. The pollution generated by bitcoin is not a factor of mining efficiency, its a factor of its price. When bitcoin reaches $100,000, its pollution will be roughly equivalent to the pollution created from making $100,000 worth of energy…

This is correct. But every 4 years, there is a halving.

If the price of Bitcoin were to stay the same after each halving, then mining would be half as profitable so the amount of energy used by Bitcoin miners would drop by half.

In 2012, the amount of new bitcoins issued every 10 minutes dropped from 50 bitcoins to 25. In 2016, it dropped from 25 to 12.5. In the most recent May 11, 2020 halving, the reward dropped from 12.5 to 6.25 BTC per block.

In the 2024 halving, the reward will drop from 6.25 BTC per block to 3.125 BTC.

An unsolved problem with Bitcoin is that in 15-20 years, Bitcoin may no longer be profitable to mine. People speculate that fees will increase. If people have already invested in solar panels, windmills, hydro electric, volcanic energy and already bought their Bitcoin miners, they might just leave them all on. Even if it only earns them a few dollars a day, the opportunity cost could very well be zero.

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#39

Post by theK »

reginold wrote: post #35
theK wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you need to compare the societal impact one BTC tx has vs the societal impact the equivalent energy consumption in mobility (you example) has. If my calculations aren't off, a bitcoin tx is the equivalent of your days mobility assuming a suburban commute in an EV and all externalities (groceries, kids etc) so yeah, investing that energy in being mobile makes more sense than doing btc txs

What is the value of a bitcoin transaction?

In sociological terms? Negligible in relation to a days mobility.

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#40

Post by theK »

ashtonkem wrote: post #37
reginold wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, if bitcoin is useless them by definition all the energy is waste. That "if is important. It all comes down to "what is the value of bitcoin".

Not what is the value of bitcoin, what is the use of bitcoin. What function does it fill for a society in order to justify the energy expenditure? Manipulating a dollar value of something is apparently trivial to do, just look at the wild fluctuations in bitcoins price. So far the resounding answer has been “number go up”. Well, that and crime if we’re being honest.

I'm pretty sure he is trolling... It is evident by now that the energy fueling bitcoin should better be used otherwise.
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