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Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

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Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#21

Post by petmon »

aserafini wrote: post #15
rz2k wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opportunity cost means there is effectively no difference. A megawatt hour used to mine from a clean source means that a megawatt hour used for something else doesn't come from a clean energy source. Even if this project is the difference between building additional clean energy capacity or not, the resources for building that capacity have an opportunity cost—something that can't be built that would create value…

> Resources of building clean energy capacity have an opportunity cost I don’t understand this point, are you saying a project that stimulates additional clean energy capacity is a net negative somehow? Why?

Yes and very much so. Look at the GPU market: probably crypto has stimulated some GPU additional capacity, but overall crypto has been highly net-negative for non-crypto GPU uses. Imagine if crypto did to the solar market what it has already done to the GPU market.

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#23

Post by motioncuty »

rz2k wrote: post #5
bko wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the energy comes from a clean source, what does it matter? I think Dorsey believes that if there were cost effective mining equipment that requires little maintenance and is simple to maintain, you'd be able to use it in places that have abundant cheap and renewable resources. The cheapest forms of power are likely the ones that are going to go to waste anyway. Sure you'll still bid up the price you consume, but t…

The opportunity cost means there is effectively no difference. A megawatt hour used to mine from a clean source means that a megawatt hour used for something else doesn't come from a clean energy source. Even if this project is the difference between building additional clean energy capacity or not, the resources for building that capacity have an opportunity cost—something that can't be built that would create value…

This isnt true at all, theres tons of stranded energy production sources that are not being used now that would be made viable through mining crypto and transferring that "work" electronically rather than over wire.

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#24

Post by ac29 »

literallyaduck wrote: post #22

Even if energy was free to mine, the hardware manufacturing for the GPUs would be problematic.

Bitcoin mining hasnt used GPUs in a long time. Its worse - it uses fully custom ASICs that still take up fab time and raw materials, but when they are no longer economical to run, they cant be reused for anything else.

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#25

Post by reginold »

theK wrote: post #20
reginold wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Square has written a memo titled "Bitcoin is Key to an Abundant, Clean Energy Future". What are your thoughts on the piece? https://squareup.com/us/en/press/bcei-white-paper

I think there are a number of fallacies in this white paper. For one, energy consumed by pow is just spent energy, it does not contribute to societal development. Also, this sort of consumer specific investment disregards society because it disregards where society needs the energy (since society is not the target group). On another hand, this whole paper seems very short sighted and rand-ish. The fact of the matter…

> energy consumed by pow is just spent energy, it does not contribute to societal development

Can you explain more about what you mean by this? Would the same apply to a gallon of gas burned in a car for example?

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#26

Post by reginold »

TwiceCubed wrote: post #11

As it happens, the most widespread piece of employee feedback the last time Square surveyed, was that Jack is wasting too much of his time on crypto nonsense that has nothing to do with Square's actual business competencies. I guess it wasn't taken to heart.

oo interesting, source? Wonder what Twitter employee survey says too.

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#27

Post by bloqs »

reginold wrote: post #25
theK wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are a number of fallacies in this white paper. For one, energy consumed by pow is just spent energy, it does not contribute to societal development. Also, this sort of consumer specific investment disregards society because it disregards where society needs the energy (since society is not the target group). On another hand, this whole paper seems very short sighted and rand-ish. The fact of the matter…

> energy consumed by pow is just spent energy, it does not contribute to societal development Can you explain more about what you mean by this? Would the same apply to a gallon of gas burned in a car for example?

Proof of work is computing. Like any computing, like your home PC or laptop, running an application costs electricity, and perhaps slightly warms its nearby vicinity. A gallon of gas or a battery in a car may have a similar impact. A gallon of gas may have further negative externalities like the destruction of the atmosphere etc.

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#28

Post by [deleted] »

ac29 wrote: post #24
literallyaduck wrote: post #22

Even if energy was free to mine, the hardware manufacturing for the GPUs would be problematic.

Bitcoin mining hasnt used GPUs in a long time. Its worse - it uses fully custom ASICs that still take up fab time and raw materials, but when they are no longer economical to run, they cant be reused for anything else.

[deleted]

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#29

Post by RedBeetDeadpool »

reginold wrote: post #7
RedBeetDeadpool wrote: post #2

Dorsey's giving out some narrative of reducing pollution by making mining more efficient. This has to be him just saying things the media wants to hear, because that simply doesn't work. The pollution generated by bitcoin is not a factor of mining efficiency, its a factor of its price. When bitcoin reaches $100,000, its pollution will be roughly equivalent to the pollution created from making $100,000 worth of energy…

Square has written a memo titled "Bitcoin is Key to an Abundant, Clean Energy Future". What are your thoughts on the piece? https://squareup.com/us/en/press/bcei-white-paper

I have to start out by saying there are a lot of creative people looking to make money, and am humbled reading the paper. Its definitely a little on the optimistic side, but its an interesting idea.

> Bitcoin miners are unique energy buyers in that they offer highly flexible and easily interruptible load, provide payout in a globally liquid cryptocurrency, and are completely location agnostic, requiring only an internet connection. These combined qualities constitute an extraordinary asset, an energy buyer of last resort that can be turned on or off at a moment’s notice anywhere in the world.

So for anyone else reading, the premise is to capitalize during times when there is excess energy being generated. So instead of trying to figure out how to store that excess, you can expend it mining bitcoins.

It does make investing in green energy more attractive, since you don't end up throwing away excess energy, which makes the claim "Key to and Abundant, Clean Energy Future" somewhat defensible. But investors will have to consider other things like cost of energy storage and cost of maintaining a competitive mining rig, and who knows, the reality might be that burning up the excess for bitcoin is still not a good trade.

I also don't see increased attractiveness of green energy to investors, mining efficiency, and pollution output of the bitcoin network having strong correlations with each other. Maybe it might help increase the percentage of green energy in the energy sector, which in turn reduces the amount of brown energy being expended mining bitcoin, but, that would be more of a second order effect, and we can only make postulations at that point.

Re: Jack Dorsey says Square is ‘considering’ building a Bitcoin mining system

#30

Post by MandieD »

motioncuty wrote: post #23
rz2k wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opportunity cost means there is effectively no difference. A megawatt hour used to mine from a clean source means that a megawatt hour used for something else doesn't come from a clean energy source. Even if this project is the difference between building additional clean energy capacity or not, the resources for building that capacity have an opportunity cost—something that can't be built that would create value…

This isnt true at all, theres tons of stranded energy production sources that are not being used now that would be made viable through mining crypto and transferring that "work" electronically rather than over wire.

Like those old coal power plants being retained or even fired up explicitly for crypto mining?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bitcoin-miners-are-giving-new-l...

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