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The JavaScript ecosystem is a hot mess and so is software development

nadh.in

11–20 of 94 posts

Re: The JavaScript ecosystem is a hot mess and so is software development

#11

Out of curiosity what is the best counter argument to the general thesis, eg either what positives come entangled in the hot mess or reasons it’s not a hot mess?

High tool churn creates an ecosystem where you get paid well for knowing the new hotness.

Re: The JavaScript ecosystem is a hot mess and so is software development

#12

“Just one dependency”. The author makes it sound like this is trivial because they have a single dependency therefore it should Just Work™. Author should have included how many node modules were installed for the one dependency. The closing statements are just mind blowing. To say vue/js don’t bother you but continue to shit on everything is a tired argument. Even bringing up PHP! What are you actually doing to make…

while this might be a valid criticism of the blog post, i think it kind of sidesteps the issue that what it describes is a common experience while working on javascript projects. for me, pinning days are dreadful. sure, hunting in changelogs to fix issues can happen in my django projects as well, but the frequency is orders of magnitudes lower, and more likely well documented. ymmv

Re: The JavaScript ecosystem is a hot mess and so is software development

#13

Out of curiosity what is the best counter argument to the general thesis, eg either what positives come entangled in the hot mess or reasons it’s not a hot mess?

That while it might be difficult to articulate, the churn of technologies does represent a meaningful search and forward march of progress. The churn is the result of ever more rapid progress on an increasingly abstract knowledge system. However, it is hard to recognize positive structural change as just another worker bee in the hive.

Re: The JavaScript ecosystem is a hot mess and so is software development

#14
post #6

I'm embarrassed to admit that for web development, I'm afraid to try frameworks like React/Vue/Angular as well as package managers like NPM/Yarn. So I settled on writing raw (X)HTML code and using only vanilla JavaScript APIs provided by the browser (ECMAScript standard library, DOM, multimedia, etc.). Because of this, I can't bang out complicated software quickly and easily like the stereotypical front-end developer…

To get a good setup in JS there’s a ton of things that are nativeish in other languages (at least via IDE) that are wholly exposed via the package management stuff. The upside of the configurability is you can mix and match, and build something that works great for your needs and your project. Different framework, different test system, different linter, different SQL wrapper, etc. The downside is that it’s overwhelming, even when experienced with it.

I would suggest starting with a bundle created by create-react-app - you will get most of the cool tooling out of the box, and discover the usefulness of some of the libraries.

Having a live loading web app is a really neat and productive way to develop - but getting there can be daunting.

Re: The JavaScript ecosystem is a hot mess and so is software development

#15
post #6

I'm embarrassed to admit that for web development, I'm afraid to try frameworks like React/Vue/Angular as well as package managers like NPM/Yarn. So I settled on writing raw (X)HTML code and using only vanilla JavaScript APIs provided by the browser (ECMAScript standard library, DOM, multimedia, etc.). Because of this, I can't bang out complicated software quickly and easily like the stereotypical front-end developer…

> I made an exception for TypeScript

I was nodding my head until TypeScript. I still don't like it even after years of people telling me it's the future. Maybe this is what it feels like to be older.

Re: The JavaScript ecosystem is a hot mess and so is software development

#16
So, `yarn upgrade` broke something, probably because some package down the road didn't respect SemVer. I guess failing to respect SemVer can happen in any ecosystem, now in other ecosystem you could have sealed dependencies that an upgrade can't break, but then it makes the whole upgrade action moot. In summary, you either, not upgrade, go deep in your lock-file and fix it manually, our you update your main depenency like you did. If your UI library doesn't support the new version of the framework, you either change the library or you bail out on upgrade for the time being.

It seems pretty reasonable process to me, I feel your pain on the wasted time and I wish github issues have something like "current answer" so we don't need to go through pages of comments to find out how to fix or workaround something. In any case, lock files are there to help and make everything more static like in other package managers that don't support the same kind of dynamism. Upgrade is just like wiping your lock file.

Re: The JavaScript ecosystem is a hot mess and so is software development

#17

Out of curiosity what is the best counter argument to the general thesis, eg either what positives come entangled in the hot mess or reasons it’s not a hot mess?

A developer today can create better apps with less experience today than they could 20 years ago.

Re: The JavaScript ecosystem is a hot mess and so is software development

#18
post #2

Yeah for my new startup I decided to avoid javascript except where its absolutely necessary and then use css plus lots of server side python including template generation and system and database management. I was using spa+soa with node and angular, react and vue for years but decided to use django especially because it has a great security track record and changes very slowly and doesn't require tons of extra librar…

JustPy has been my dream come true for python based web-development.

Re: The JavaScript ecosystem is a hot mess and so is software development

#19

This is a rant I can appreciate. Two subjective takes on the same subject: 1) As JavaScript became ascendant, it seems like developers lost their fear of dependencies, for some reason I don't understand. Dependencies came to be seen as "time saved" rather than "something out of your control that can hurt you." 2) When dependencies don't fit together, things fail in a way that makes it look as if the code is simply wr…

> At some point it would make sense to include automated googling in the CI pipeline just to add some necessary information to the errors.

Sounds like a decent feature to include in a compiler!

Re: The JavaScript ecosystem is a hot mess and so is software development

#20
post #15
post #6

I'm embarrassed to admit that for web development, I'm afraid to try frameworks like React/Vue/Angular as well as package managers like NPM/Yarn. So I settled on writing raw (X)HTML code and using only vanilla JavaScript APIs provided by the browser (ECMAScript standard library, DOM, multimedia, etc.). Because of this, I can't bang out complicated software quickly and easily like the stereotypical front-end developer…

> I made an exception for TypeScript I was nodding my head until TypeScript. I still don't like it even after years of people telling me it's the future. Maybe this is what it feels like to be older.

What don't you like about it?
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