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Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

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Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#61

Post by DarknessFalls »

BobbyJo wrote: post #23
teddyh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you write is perfectly true, but both tribes read that and think “Yes, that’s how it is for people in the other tribe. We in this tribe, of course, are much better than that.”.

Is there a pattern of thought that makes one immune to this? Like, if I reject every tribe, I become part of the 'everyone is dumb tribe', if I accept the views of every authority, I become part of the 'sheep' tribe, but maybe if one were to employ some pattern of acceptance and contrarianism in the face of other's arguments, then, on average, one's own tribalism would dissolve.

Self-awareness in the context of one's adherence to "influencers" in culture. If you read the article as I did, and constantly thought: "Could this apply to me in some way?", then you are appropriately testing yourself.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#62

Post by guyomes »

_hl_ wrote: post #24
ladon86 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, but I would say that on an axis of: Stupidity Silliness …Dummheit leans slightly more towards silliness than pure stupidity does in English. I think Dummheit can be both an adjective and a noun, right? The latter, “eine Dummheit”, sounds more like a silly mistake to me (like “I did a stupid” in internet-speak). A word like “nonsense” might be a good parallel? In English that word can cover serious, trivial, an…

I think it's folly to try and grasp the nuances of "Dummheit" as Bonhoeffer used it 80 years ago from our modern usage of the word. It depends on how the word was used at the time. Even today it depends on context, although generally you are right that it leans a little bit towards silly.

This reminds me of a visualisation tool [0] for the distance between the meaning of words in french, based on databases of texts. I wonder if that would help to grasp the nuances in older times.

[0]: https://www.cnrtl.fr/proxemie/sottise

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#63

Post by AlbertCory »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #35
AlbertCory wrote: post #14

"The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. However, none of the comments so far have really grasped his point, which is that stupidity is a group phenomenon. Maybe a modern equivalent would be "tribe." Of course you can't convince someone of the other tribe to come over and join yours on any one p…

Do you have a source for what Bonhoeffer would have meant by that? I have my own guess to its meaning, but I hesitate to say it does/doesn't match his definition without seeing some exposition on it.

Given this layout, I can't tell whom you're addressing this to: the guy who said "folly" was the better translation?

In any case, I did study German in college, but I'm far from being able to judge what word is accurate. If the word was "Dummheit" that translates literally as "dumb head" but that doesn't mean a German would understand it that way.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#64

Post by CamperBob2 »

InTheArena wrote: post #51
plutonorm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You entirely missed my point that this idea of good ideology and bad ideology is a hall of mirrors. We are all embedded in the same network of information and we are carried by their tides. In using one ideology to escape another he is merely choosing a different tide.

He used his ideology to break away from the group and to found a group in opposition to the first.

... a group based on a religion responsible for no small amount of evil in itself. As the GP suggests, replacing one brand of stupidity with another isn't the solution. It's the whole problem.

Bonhoeffer's essay is worthwhile, but it's also true that his closing paragraphs provide a flawless example of what the previous ones warned about.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#65

Post by pugio »

BobbyJo wrote: post #23
teddyh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you write is perfectly true, but both tribes read that and think “Yes, that’s how it is for people in the other tribe. We in this tribe, of course, are much better than that.”.

Is there a pattern of thought that makes one immune to this? Like, if I reject every tribe, I become part of the 'everyone is dumb tribe', if I accept the views of every authority, I become part of the 'sheep' tribe, but maybe if one were to employ some pattern of acceptance and contrarianism in the face of other's arguments, then, on average, one's own tribalism would dissolve.

Check out The Scout Mindset. It's the best book I've found on how to think clearly (on these kinds of potentially tribal thoughts), and how to productively interact with people who may not be trying to improve in this area (the "stupid" people).

We're actually making it required reading at my workplace.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#66

Post by mistermann »

NalNezumi wrote: post #9
preach wrote: post #2

> The word of the Bible that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom declares that the internal liberation of human beings to live the responsible life before God is the only genuine way to overcome stupidity. Do you agree?

To me that just seems like a theistic wording of "be humble because you are not perfect, and there's always a potential that you're wrong" An atheistic wording could come from a moral perspective or appealing to virtuous characteristic. A more scientific/ modern observation based re-wording of that is just the dunning kruger effect. (specifically the middle plateau of it)

I think sometimes religion comes with more reverence or a genuine deep respect for the idea.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#67

Post by pugio »

AlbertCory wrote: post #14

"The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. However, none of the comments so far have really grasped his point, which is that stupidity is a group phenomenon. Maybe a modern equivalent would be "tribe." Of course you can't convince someone of the other tribe to come over and join yours on any one p…

> "The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore.

I would suggest that perhaps you are limiting your scope of possible "we" (21st century human) thought states. The passage seems to me perfectly clear. For reference, the full quote is:

> "The word of the Bible that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom declares that the internal liberation of human beings to live the responsible life before God is the only genuine way to overcome stupidity."

He's discussing one way out of the trap of conforming to group/tribal beliefs. If you put your fear of God (in other words, some power higher than, and distinctly external to, any social group) you begin to liberate yourself from caring too much about what other people think.

If you believe that God demands that you act as morally (for some definition/code) and as responsibly as possible, and you place that demand/requirement higher than any other motivating feeling, you will ask about any belief or course of action "Is this Right?" (ie. Does this align with God's command), and consider that question more deeply than the creeds or slogans of your fellow mortals.

Note that he's not saying that the above state of mind is easy, it's merely something just strive for. Many devout religious people still try to the best of their ability to work towards that exact state.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#68

Post by mistermann »

breakyerself wrote: post #37
greenail wrote: post #7

What do you do when you have close to 50/50 power dynamic and both sides think the other is stupid?

Can we identify if both sides are actually stupid or is that just the perception of both sides?

It isn't difficult to identify some "stupidity" in most any ideology, but managing to get a member of an ideology to acknowledge that it is true/relevant/etc is extremely difficult. I suspect some much better approach is out there, but we seem to not have found it (perhaps because we aren't really trying to find it).

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#69

Post by pugio »

abecedarius wrote: post #36

Similar thoughts from Orwell from around the same time: https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel... It's curious how these both name a phenomenon with words that seem off-target, "stupidity" or "nationalism"; they seem to mean something like reducing yourself to a soldier for an egregore. Anyone have a better word for the general pattern?

In The Scout Mindset, Julia Galef calls a very related state "the soldier mindset" - this is similar enough to the term you proposed but I think you would enjoy reading the book.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#70

Post by Mitzz »

pugio wrote: post #67
AlbertCory wrote: post #14

"The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. However, none of the comments so far have really grasped his point, which is that stupidity is a group phenomenon. Maybe a modern equivalent would be "tribe." Of course you can't convince someone of the other tribe to come over and join yours on any one p…

> "The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. I would suggest that perhaps you are limiting your scope of possible "we" (21st century human) thought states. The passage seems to me perfectly clear. For reference, the full quote is: > "The word of the Bible that the fear of God is the beginning of w…

Well said.

Personally I imperfectly strive to think this way, and I imagine at least hundreds of millions of others do as well.

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