Bonhoeffer on Stupidity • Hacker News Board

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#51

Post by InTheArena » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

plutonorm wrote: post #45

InTheArena wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand who Bohnhoeffer was, what he was fighting on - who he was leading - and what he paid his life for. Bonhoeffer did, in fact, reject the poplar ideas that "flowed though" his community. His sin was was rejecting the Nazi attempt to co-opt Christianity via the German Christian movement. His "confessing church" was one of the very very few organized responses to Hitler-ism in Germany.

You entirely missed my point that this idea of good ideology and bad ideology is a hall of mirrors. We are all embedded in the same network of information and we are carried by their tides. In using one ideology to escape another he is merely choosing a different tide.

He used his ideology to break away from the group and to found a group in opposition to the first.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#52

Post by 13415 » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 5:58 PM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #20

evolve2k wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both are likely infected, each full with slogans and jargon.

Yes, but what do you do ?

As an Epicurean, nothing. Avoid all of this like the plague, interact only with close friends and do not engage in politics and "power play." Spent your time on what matters to you.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#53

Post by DrStormyDaniels » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

Bonheoffer was a Lutheran pastor. Nietzsche, the son of a Lutheran pastor: 'In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.'

Also cf. Cipolla:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#54

Post by TrispusAttucks » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #18

AlbertCory wrote: post #14

"The responsible life before God" -- I don't think any modern person is capable of understanding what that meant in the 1940s. We just don't think that way anymore. However, none of the comments so far have really grasped his point, which is that stupidity is a group phenomenon. Maybe a modern equivalent would be "tribe." Of course you can't convince someone of the other tribe to come over and join yours on any one p…

What you write is perfectly true, but both tribes read that and think “Yes, that’s how it is for people in the other tribe. We in this tribe, of course, are much better than that.”.

This is compounded by neither tribe admitting the other tribe's good ideas. We focus on all or nothing rejection of the opposing team.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#55

Post by groby_b » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

ladon86 wrote: post #19

mudita wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term Bonhoeffer used is "Dummheit". As a German "stupidity" seems to be a more accurate translation to me.

It is, but I would say that on an axis of: Stupidity Silliness …Dummheit leans slightly more towards silliness than pure stupidity does in English. I think Dummheit can be both an adjective and a noun, right? The latter, “eine Dummheit”, sounds more like a silly mistake to me (like “I did a stupid” in internet-speak). A word like “nonsense” might be a good parallel? In English that word can cover serious, trivial, an…

As a German: It depends on the context.

If you use it as a noun, referring to an individual act, it is used to refer to a mistake. But even then, not a silly one. It refers to a lapse in judgment, to a lack of proper reasoning.

If it doesn't refer to an individual act, but to a trait, it's meant as an incapability to reason properly, often painfully so. It's used as a derogative, not to mark a silly mistake.

The most famous quote about Dummheit makes fairly clear it's not just meant as silliness. Schiller's "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens" (Even the gods struggle in vain against stupidity) clearly marks it as something both detrimental and incorrigible.

That's really the core distinction - Dummheit as referring to an individual act vs. as a trait. This goes for both the adjective ("dumm") and the trait.

It is an implicit acknowledgment of the fact that individual mistakes happen and are excusable, but constant failure is a negative mark.

Bonhoeffer very clearly refers to the latter, but moves it from an individual failing to a societal one.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#56

Post by julian37 » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 6:15 PM UTC

NalNezumi wrote: post #30

BobbyJo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a pattern of thought that makes one immune to this? Like, if I reject every tribe, I become part of the 'everyone is dumb tribe', if I accept the views of every authority, I become part of the 'sheep' tribe, but maybe if one were to employ some pattern of acceptance and contrarianism in the face of other's arguments, then, on average, one's own tribalism would dissolve.

The partial solution to this is what _used_ to be called "open-mindedness". But it's not a pattern for "immunity" but in analogue, practices to keep you "fit" and prepared. I think CGP grey summarized the pattern nicely, and I quote: (timestamped)[0] "The trick is to keep your identity separate from your opinions - they are objects in a box you carry with you and should be easily replaceable if it turns out they're n…

Brecht had a whimsical take on this. There's a German saying that goes "wer A sagt, muss auch B sagen": he who says A, has to say B, meaning of course you should always try and follow through.

Brecht wrote "Wer a sagt, der muß nicht b sagen. Er kann auch erkennen, daß a falsch war": he who says A, doesn't have to say B. He can also realize that A was wrong.

https://beruhmte-zitate.de/zitate/126572-bertolt-brecht-wer-...

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#57

Post by jbotz » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 6:15 PM UTC

iratewizard wrote: post #41

justin_oaks wrote: post #38

Malicious people's lies can be debunked, but the stupid people who believe the lies can't be corrected through debunking. We see this a lot today. Although it's nothing new, social media and the internet has made it easier for people to find those lies, and find others to help reinforce the lies in each other's minds.

People who belive malicious lies aren't necessarily stupid. Tens of millions of people today will turn on their TV in America. They're not all stupid.

Yes they are. By the definition of "stupid" in this article, they are. Like Bonhoeffer says, "there are people of remarkably agile intellect yet stupid".

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#58

Post by groby_b » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 6:17 PM UTC

plutonorm wrote: post #32

Peak irony. He calls out stupid people for being merely vessels for ideologies. Then immediately proceeds to declare - with effortless stupidity - that god is the source of liberation from stupidity. It's peak irony. And it effortlessly describes the real state of the world; we are all bound by the ideas that flow through us. There is no escape into critical reasoning or any other ideology, precisely because these ar…

Of course "the world is a hall of mirrors" is just your ideology. Maybe there were additional peaks of irony left after Bonhoeffer's, and you were meant to explore them.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#59

Post by poulsbohemian » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 6:37 PM UTC

DrStormyDaniels wrote: post #53

Bonheoffer was a Lutheran pastor. Nietzsche, the son of a Lutheran pastor: 'In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.' Also cf. Cipolla: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...

I'm not completely sure the point you are intending to make, but yes - there is a reason why so many great German thinkers were Lutheran or had Lutheran ties. It is exemplified by Luther's Table Talks at the pfarrhaus. Basically, it was a regular activity to gather at the pastor's house and debate / discuss / philosophize. Thus this became part of the culture.

Re: Bonhoeffer on Stupidity

#60

Post by DrStormyDaniels » Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

poulsbohemian wrote: post #59

DrStormyDaniels wrote: post #53

Bonheoffer was a Lutheran pastor. Nietzsche, the son of a Lutheran pastor: 'In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.' Also cf. Cipolla: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...

I'm not completely sure the point you are intending to make, but yes - there is a reason why so many great German thinkers were Lutheran or had Lutheran ties. It is exemplified by Luther's Table Talks at the pfarrhaus. Basically, it was a regular activity to gather at the pastor's house and debate / discuss / philosophize. Thus this became part of the culture.

Interesting, thanks. I want to know more about Lutherism, if you have any suggestions? As for my point, I'm not 100% sure there was one, except that it's nice to observe a theologian having common ground with the antichrist himself.