Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD • Hacker News Board

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#71

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

chrsig wrote: post #40

skeletron wrote: post #22

Many of the reviews of the Android app are quite critical of the trial and payment model, for example: > CAUTION: After the free trial period (7 days), they will charge for an annual subscription ($102.95 US). This is OPT OUT, not opt in. In other reviews they say they will offer a refund (I will update when/if I get one) but for an app for people with executive function issues, an opt out format seems shady. Either…

yeah, this really undermines the credibility of the app. I really hope that they address this.

[deleted]

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#72

Post by throwanem » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

colinplamondon wrote: post #56

d4mi3n wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn’t the cost, it’s the way folks with ADHD are being charged. The whole point here is to help folks who are having trouble remembering to do things. Regardless of the economics, the optics here make this seem like exploitation. Making this opt-in avoids a dark pattern. Folks with ADHD are often impulsive and strike while the iron is hot—if this has value people will opt-in.

Why are we holding this new startup to a standard we don't hold anyone else? 6 months from now when they have their economics figured out, cool, they can run that test. Generally, giving users a toggle to get reminded when a trial is about to run out will INCREASE conversion rates. That depends on the business, and is part of a pretty standard set of experiments you run post-launch. With your comments you're part HN…

> Why are we holding this new startup to a standard we don't hold anyone else?

Most startups aren't offering medical care. Call it "virtue signaling" if you like that those which do come in for a likewise unusual degree of scrutiny, but do you think you're likely to convince anyone that way?

I won't quibble with your analysis of the unit economics involved, but I will say that's not on point - this isn't a question of CAC/LTV but rather one of perception and image. My impression of Launch HN posts is that they are intended in part to elicit this sort of analysis, and by that metric this one has succeeded quite well. It seems like these founders didn't know they had this problem to solve, and now - if they're paying attention, which I assume they are - they do know. In what way is that other than a win?

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#73

Post by deeblering4 » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

skeletron wrote: post #22

Many of the reviews of the Android app are quite critical of the trial and payment model, for example: > CAUTION: After the free trial period (7 days), they will charge for an annual subscription ($102.95 US). This is OPT OUT, not opt in. In other reviews they say they will offer a refund (I will update when/if I get one) but for an app for people with executive function issues, an opt out format seems shady. Either…

FWIW this is how several diet apps work as well. Short initial free trial, followed by auto-charge lump sum subscription of 6-12mo.

Not my favorite model, but also probably not intentionally predatory towards a specific group of people.

From a business point of view it makes some sense. It extracts maximum money from customers in a niche that is inherently flakey (dieting, self-help, etc.). People often start off strong for a few weeks/months and flake out. Forcing a longer up-front commitment helps their bottom line, and possibly helps some customers stick with it since they already spent the money.

I'm not trying to defend it, but I do think it's a bit much to say it's intentionally predatory. From my view it's just app economy capitalism at work.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#74

Post by WhiteDawn » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:30 PM UTC

As someone with ADHD, I’ve stayed away from this product because it is a subscription service.

I will sign up for subscription services fully well intentioned and then proceed to not use the service and forget to cancel it in time. I know myself well enough now to stay away from any product offering a subscription. There is no real “managing” it, it’s just a fact of life for me and something I live around.

An app targeting ADHD minds and not offering alternative payment options is arguably more predatory than the average free-to-play mobile app, as the founders of this app presumably know about the difficulties that ADHD cause and are either willingly ignoring it or actively exploiting it.

Even if it’s a honest accident, it leaves a bad enough taste in my mouth to stay far away.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#75

Post by staticautomatic » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:30 PM UTC

deeblering4 wrote: post #73

skeletron wrote: post #22

Many of the reviews of the Android app are quite critical of the trial and payment model, for example: > CAUTION: After the free trial period (7 days), they will charge for an annual subscription ($102.95 US). This is OPT OUT, not opt in. In other reviews they say they will offer a refund (I will update when/if I get one) but for an app for people with executive function issues, an opt out format seems shady. Either…

FWIW this is how several diet apps work as well. Short initial free trial, followed by auto-charge lump sum subscription of 6-12mo. Not my favorite model, but also probably not intentionally predatory towards a specific group of people. From a business point of view it makes some sense. It extracts maximum money from customers in a niche that is inherently flakey (dieting, self-help, etc.). People often start off str…

“Predatory” and “working for other apps” aren’t mutually exclusive.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#76

Post by beaconstudios » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:30 PM UTC

rubylark wrote: post #60

what_is_orcas wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, reading the description, it's hard not to get a little concerned: "a start up that's going to try to make money off of folks with ADHD" isn't a great starting place. I think this is sort of a broader start-up problem. Some things shouldn't be monetized (period, but for the sake of the audience, I'll add: at least not as aggressively as is required for a start-up).

Here's a counter argument: "a company making money off of folks with ____" describes the entirety of the Biomed industry. Every medical device is sold with the intention of helping people with medical issues, but they can't be free. The cost of development and production has to be covered by somebody (be that by the government, medical insurance, or private party). If it wasn't, the company making the device wouldn't…

> Every medical device is sold with the intention of helping people with medical issues, but they can't be free.

Close, but a slight correction here:

Every medical device is sold with the intention of maximising profit, but they can't do nothing or people wouldn't buy them.

That more accurately portrays the priority.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#77

Post by tgv » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:32 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #53

colinplamondon wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is totally wrong. The economics of monthly billing are awful, and completely unworkable for a new startup. You have to do annual. Cost of Install: $7.00, for something this specific Trial Start Rate: 20%, if paywalled like this app is Cost Per Trial: $35 Conversion to Trial: 40% Cost Per Subscriber: $87.50 If they charge you $10/month, they can't get into the black on a new customer for 9 months. They have to ea…

None of what you’re saying makes sense. If the product is amazing people will continue paying and attrition will be low, annual or not. Basically the model here is like a gym, where people buy things that they don’t use as much as the price implies or is simply ineffective. Given that the customers are executive function impaired, seems shady.

> or is simply ineffective

And 7 days is really too short to notice a sustained effect.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#78

Post by ChrisMarshallNY » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:33 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #68

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #2

I wish you luck! I have the opposite issue. I'm ... what do you call it? neurodiverse (at one time, I was an "aspie"), and I can actually get locked into a fugue, so strong, that hours go by like minutes. In the aggregate, it has worked out OK. I'm a damn good programmer (but a total nerd). I do have family that have suffered from ADHD, and hope that your app may be helpful.

I strongly suggest that you engage with some professionals for this issue, not an app targeted at a single diagnosis. Issues like you describe are difficult to self-diagnose and impossible for others to diagnose over the internet. You could have an ADHD-like etiology, maladaptive daydreaming, or you could have a seizure disorder. Undiagnosed seizure disorders can be particularly draining but are often easily treated.…

Ahh...it's all water under the bridge, for me. I've accepted my own proclivities, and learned to make them strengths.

I have no interest in the app, but I agree that folks who believe they may have any type of issues like this, should start by seeking professional help.

One of the things about HFA and ADHD, is that they can go undiagnosed for a lifetime; which is not always a bad thing. We can often be extremely productive members of society; despite challenges.

A lot of times, the behaviors and habits we develop, as mitigations of the symptoms, can cause more problems that the issue, itself.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#79

Post by carlisle_ » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

colinplamondon wrote: post #56

d4mi3n wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn’t the cost, it’s the way folks with ADHD are being charged. The whole point here is to help folks who are having trouble remembering to do things. Regardless of the economics, the optics here make this seem like exploitation. Making this opt-in avoids a dark pattern. Folks with ADHD are often impulsive and strike while the iron is hot—if this has value people will opt-in.

Why are we holding this new startup to a standard we don't hold anyone else? 6 months from now when they have their economics figured out, cool, they can run that test. Generally, giving users a toggle to get reminded when a trial is about to run out will INCREASE conversion rates. That depends on the business, and is part of a pretty standard set of experiments you run post-launch. With your comments you're part HN…

I find it strange that you keep talking past the point people are making. The problem is opt-out, and nobody is holding this company to a different standard. People hate opt-out, and in this case it looks particularly predatory.

Your comments come off as entirely unempathetic. Not everything is about bottom line capitalism.

Re: Launch HN: Inflow (YC S21) – Self-help app for people with ADHD

#80

Post by samstave » Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #38

mStreamTeam wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with ADHD, I can confirm this model is super predatory. I cancel all my credit cards every year just to get rid of all opt-in charges on regular basis

Billing an entire annual subscription up front, as opposed to monthly, seems especially questionable. What if the therapy doesn't work? What if it's so badly implemented that it can't work? You're still out a hundred bucks just the same, and that's just in the first year. edit: There is also a monthly subscription option, in the Apple app store at least. It's $22 a month - so over twice as much as the annual. This do…

Perhaps there is room for the following:

(Please dont kill me for the off-the-cuff idea:)

A per-login / frequency of use model;

You agree to a MAXIMUM of $100/year as WELL AS a max per month that may be charged (== to $100/12 max) -- but the idea is that if you skip a month or some amount of time you are not charged....

The usage is based on certain amount of time-in-app or somesuch....

you get the idea.

---

Anyway, as someone who has debilitating ADHD I really want to use this... but whilst not working, I can't pre-commit $100 to something that I may have too bad a case of ADHD to adopt on a regular.