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On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

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Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#191

Post by jyrkesh »

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #122
wrs wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people are strongly emotionally attached to their home country. Not sure why you would expect the breakup to be low-stress and unemotional.

Thats so weird. Why do people give a damn about something that only matters with legal matters and not anything about identity.

Legal matters have ramifications. She can never live in the US ever again. The loss of that option alone would be emotional for me, knowing that I have to chunk up time with loved ones into 90 day periods, or knowing that I never the option to say, move home and take care of my parents.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#192

Post by VWWHFSfQ »

ska wrote: post #187
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah OK. So now it makes sense why this woman renounced her USA citizenship She wanted to still be an American, but didn't want to do the yearly paperwork to keep her citizenship. Got it.

It's not just your paperwork. In many countries you'll be denied seemingly basic financial services by institutions because FACTA would make their paperwork too much hassle.

OK then she should just keep being an American. Right?

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#193

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

voisin wrote: post #43
hbrav wrote: post #33

I have a question about this, that I've never been able to find a good answer to: what happens if you unilaterally renounce US citizenship? Consider the situation: you're a dual US / Dutch citizen. You want to avoid paying US income tax (or just to avoid filling in a form each year that results in the IRS telling you that your tax bill is $0 because the Netherlands' tax rate is higher). But the State Department's ren…

> Your method of enforcing this would (I assume) be to file a suit against the bank in the Netherlands and seek an order to prevent them from passing any information on you to the IRS. You would effectively be asking a Dutch court to rule on whether you can unilaterally renounce US citizenship. This is incorrect. The method of enforcing tax obligations is spelled out in bilateral tax treaties. In this instance the US…

The obligations are not owed to the Dutch, and I find extremely unlikely that the tax treaty includes language which says "the fee for renouncing citizenship, if unpaid, shall be paid to the Dutch". In the outlined scenario, no taxes are owed. What is not paid is the fee for renoucning, and what has not been done is filing the paperwork. So the question is whether the tax treaty covers this, and whether or not a Dutch court would try to act on behalf of the US government regarding these matters.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#194

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

voisin wrote: post #40
hbrav wrote: post #33

I have a question about this, that I've never been able to find a good answer to: what happens if you unilaterally renounce US citizenship? Consider the situation: you're a dual US / Dutch citizen. You want to avoid paying US income tax (or just to avoid filling in a form each year that results in the IRS telling you that your tax bill is $0 because the Netherlands' tax rate is higher). But the State Department's ren…

> you tell all your banks that you are not a US citizen and ask them to update your details accordingly. Banks abroad demand proof beyond just telling them that. You need to show the Certificate of Loss of Nationality or present a US Taxpayer Identification Number.

Why not tell them you were never a US citizen and present them with a passport from another country?

One catch is that if the passport is like the UK or US passports (i.e. perhaps all?) it will show your place of birth, and if (like the UK Prime Minister) that was within the US, anyone with half a brain will know that from the US perspective, you were born a US citizen.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#195

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

dd_roger wrote: post #171

Honestly I find it pretty fucked up that someone would renounce their citizenship "for convenience". I can't really comprehend how their country could mean so little to someone, especially when that country is a democracy. Regarding the taxation when living abroad, doesn't it actually make sense? Sure it sounds like an oddity because the US are the only to do it, but most emigrants I know still use the consular servi…

If you live more or less any other industrialized country, and work there, you will owe the US ZERO in taxes because you pay more to the country where you are resident (and perhaps a citizen).

The complaint is not about having to pay taxes to reflect your status, it's about having to pay accountants etc. to complete forms that show you don't owe any tax to the US.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#196

Post by ajay-b »

I think she should have become a Dutch citizen. Why was it necessary to hang on to her American citizenship when she reasonably could be assumed to have no intention of returning? I’m surprised some countries don’t require a longterm resident to apply for citizenship.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#197

Post by pgreenwood »

xunn0026 wrote: post #80
throw63738 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

》This misses the point in that the US is the _only_ developed country to impose worldwide taxation on its citizens regardless of where they live Not really. Norway does that for 3 years after leaving. Australia is very opinionated and may not allow people to change tax residency, even after physically moving out...

Of course, nowadays Australia won't even let people physically leave at all!

You can leave at will if you're not an Australian citizen or a permanent resident. If you are, then you currently need an exemption, e.g for work or business, or you're going to live in another country.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#198

Post by ajay-b »

001Diana wrote: post #173
PKop wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's either a fiction or it's real. And given the privileges that come with being a citizen, of course it is not a fiction. But if it is meaningful, why should it not come with a cost? Nations as constructed obviously provide value to the people residing there, should this not come with corresponding responsibilities? Like paying taxes? And if there is value and meaning to being a citizen of a specific country why sh…

This is not “having your cake and eating it too,” it’s much more complex. It also is never a case of “the country wasn’t good enough to live in.” I would love to live in the USA. That is not where life took me. At its simplest Americans are not free to live anywhere in the world the way citizens of all other countries are (even Eritrea, the only other country that taxes it’s citizens based on citizenship, does not su…

But in this case, even though you were living abroad, you’re still a American citizen and required to pay taxes. It’s not America’s fault that you’re living abroad for a decade. Is your intention to stay there for life, and if so, just renounce your citizenship. If you’re not willing to contribute as a citizen, why remain a citizen?

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#199

Post by ajay-b »

rognjen wrote: post #52
hbrav wrote: post #33

I have a question about this, that I've never been able to find a good answer to: what happens if you unilaterally renounce US citizenship? Consider the situation: you're a dual US / Dutch citizen. You want to avoid paying US income tax (or just to avoid filling in a form each year that results in the IRS telling you that your tax bill is $0 because the Netherlands' tax rate is higher). But the State Department's ren…

That's fascinating. I'm not a lawyer but I'd guess that since you're citizen at the time, you'd have to follow the law for renouncing citizenship. You "unilaterally" renouncing it wouldn't mean anything since the law of the country says different. Perhaps consult a lawyer and if they say that there might be something there try to crowdfund it.

Oswald did as his passport said, renounced his citizenship, but the embassy attache did nothing further with it.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#200

Post by metagame »

dd_roger wrote: post #171

Honestly I find it pretty fucked up that someone would renounce their citizenship "for convenience". I can't really comprehend how their country could mean so little to someone, especially when that country is a democracy. Regarding the taxation when living abroad, doesn't it actually make sense? Sure it sounds like an oddity because the US are the only to do it, but most emigrants I know still use the consular servi…

Why wouldn't a country mean little to someone, even if it is a democracy? I live in the United States, and any theoretical vote I give is completely worthless unless I would move to Maine, and even then it's still not worth much. I move out of the United States, my vote is still worthless. I get citizenship elsewhere, my vote might have a chance at value.

The United States doesn't actually do much for its citizens; it's the states that do things for citizens, and if you're not in a good state, you get no real value from the United States or any part of your country. It wasn't always this way, but it's been this way for as long as I've been alive.

Sentiment is overrated and irrational if the country's never given you anything, and the United States just doesn't give anything to a substantial volume of its citizens.

A common argument is that the United States gives the right to free speech, or to guns, or to varying abstract concepts, but it would also give this even if everyone stopped paying their taxes and the United States was unable to enforce anything.

I'm a big fan of taxation, and of most laws. The US, though, really doesn't do anything with it that has ever benefit me.

The poster really does seem like, if anything, she cares too much for the country.

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