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On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

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Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#121

Post by PKop »

digbybk wrote: post #54
KennyBlanken wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of her points are valid but the melodrama drawing analogies to stress from the death of a spouse, describing nearly breaking into tears every so often, and describing the consequences of her actions as something "done to her" are absurd.

Citizenship is a meaningful thing to most people. Of course it's a legal fiction, but so is marriage. Personally I've never given up a citizenship, but I imagine that it'd be an emotional experience.

It's either a fiction or it's real. And given the privileges that come with being a citizen, of course it is not a fiction.

But if it is meaningful, why should it not come with a cost? Nations as constructed obviously provide value to the people residing there, should this not come with corresponding responsibilities? Like paying taxes? And if there is value and meaning to being a citizen of a specific country why should a nation not place restrictions and requirements on this privilege? I could even see for example the incentive to ban dual citizenship as one. Why is it just assumed that keeping a bunch of citizenships, not paying taxes to that country, all while not living in that country is a thing that should exist?

It seems like these people want their cake and to eat it too. If the country wasn't good enough to live in, why would you expect to keep the citizenship if you leave? "Marriage" is a two-way street..

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#122

Post by NikolaeVarius »

wrs wrote: post #93
KennyBlanken wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of her points are valid but the melodrama drawing analogies to stress from the death of a spouse, describing nearly breaking into tears every so often, and describing the consequences of her actions as something "done to her" are absurd.

Most people are strongly emotionally attached to their home country. Not sure why you would expect the breakup to be low-stress and unemotional.

Thats so weird. Why do people give a damn about something that only matters with legal matters and not anything about identity.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#123

Post by Lordarminius »

digbybk wrote: post #54
KennyBlanken wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of her points are valid but the melodrama drawing analogies to stress from the death of a spouse, describing nearly breaking into tears every so often, and describing the consequences of her actions as something "done to her" are absurd.

Citizenship is a meaningful thing to most people. Of course it's a legal fiction, but so is marriage. Personally I've never given up a citizenship, but I imagine that it'd be an emotional experience.

I'm interested in knowing:how is citizenship a legal fiction ?

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#124

Post by cr1895 »

colechristensen wrote: post #34
jeffrallen wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should try living as an expat before assuming her experiences are exaggerated. She is telling it like it is.

Is there any other reason to renounce your citizenship other than paperwork? Or taxes if you make a lot of money?

It’s a lot more than complicated taxes and paperwork.

If you are a “US Person” you may find it impossible to invest, or deal with certain financial institutions and products at all.

I live in the Netherlands. I will face restrictions with my earned pension compared to non-US persons. I am forbidden to use stock trading services like DeGiro. I am not allowed to buy or sell Bitcoin. Just some examples…read the T&Cs of practically any financial-related service and there is a prohibition on US persons.

There’s nothing illegal, of course, it’s simply that the vast majority of these institutions can’t be bothered to deal with the nightmare of compliance that is serving “US Persons.” It’s easier just to ban them.

Fortunately, my bank is used to dealing with international clients and they still welcome me as a client. I see in other countries Americans have it much more difficult. I was even allowed to open an investment account! It’s far from ideal, and I had to commit to selling off everything should I leave the country, but it’s better than nothing..

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#125

Post by Scoundreller »

voisin wrote: post #43
hbrav wrote: post #33

I have a question about this, that I've never been able to find a good answer to: what happens if you unilaterally renounce US citizenship? Consider the situation: you're a dual US / Dutch citizen. You want to avoid paying US income tax (or just to avoid filling in a form each year that results in the IRS telling you that your tax bill is $0 because the Netherlands' tax rate is higher). But the State Department's ren…

> Your method of enforcing this would (I assume) be to file a suit against the bank in the Netherlands and seek an order to prevent them from passing any information on you to the IRS. You would effectively be asking a Dutch court to rule on whether you can unilaterally renounce US citizenship. This is incorrect. The method of enforcing tax obligations is spelled out in bilateral tax treaties. In this instance the US…

It depends on the treaty, many are like you say, but not all include mutual collection/enforcement of tax debts.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#126

Post by cr1895 »

soperj wrote: post #27
voisin wrote: post #16

The conversation here at this moment seems to be focused solely on whether or not it is complicated or costly to keep filing US taxes. This misses the point in that the US is the _only_ developed country to impose worldwide taxation on its citizens regardless of where they live. The only other country to do so is Eritrea and the US has routinely criticized them for doing so. Moreover, it makes expats ineligible for c…

>some negative impact on US competitiveness Negative impact on US citizen's competitiveness, which means they're less likely to get jobs outside of the US. Which means more looking for jobs domestically, leading to lower cost of labour for corporations inside the US.

None of this impacts a foreign employer’s employment of an American.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#127

Post by jerbearito »

kjgkjhfkjf wrote: post #24
DeRock wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you share a source for that? I know at least 1 person first hand who has renounced and then later on in their life regained citizenship. It's possible the rules around this have changed however.

Yes, I think the rules might have changed. Apparently nowadays you can regain it "under very limited circumstances": https://www.usa.gov/renounce-lose-citizenship

When did the rules change? You may have just been mistaken. I thought it was always possible to gain citizenship again, assuming you're eligible like anyone else and are willing to go through the normal citizenship process.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#128

Post by nickthemagicman »

JeromeLon wrote: post #28
nickthemagicman wrote: post #13

Her essentially 3 reasons for renouncing essentially and my responses: >I could vote in the US, but no one represents the needs of US citizens abroad because our votes are dispersed over all 50 states. * there's hundreds of millions of people and only two parties in the U.S. no one represents anybodies needs well >I pay almost $1000 per year to an accountant to fill out the forms—more and lengthier than they’d be if…

You mentioned it. FATCA is not targeting US citizens abroad, it's targeting financial organisations who have US citizens as clients. So, many banks around the world will have "Are you a US citizen" as one of the first questions to open an account, and if the answer is yes, they will politely decline any further requests.

Are there NO workarounds?

I noticed you said 'many' and not 'all' banks.

It looks like these banks work for expats.

https://dutchreview.com/expat/best-banks-expats-netherlands/

Something doesn't add up.

From a non rich persons perspective it appears that person gave up her citizenship so she could essentially have a better selection of banks and to not have to use a VPN?

It seems like a US citizenship is worth it?

The actual real problems are not clear to me.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#129

Post by Scoundreller »

vibrolax wrote: post #86

Canada Revenue Agency requires me to file an even more detailed annual report on my foreign assets than I must furnish the IRS / FBAR / FinCEN. It's the most time consuming part of my tax filing.

Such a pain that CRA makes you do this for US stocks you hold at a Canadian stock broker.

At least it’s only acquisition price you need to worry about.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#130

Post by OldHand2018 »

davidw wrote: post #98
Rapzid wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice the 2021 108k per person foreign earned income exclusion is reasonably large and uncomplicated to claim. After that the list of countries we have tax treaties with is pretty large: https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/united-states/individual/foreig...

As someone who lived in Italy for years, it is a total hassle to file US taxes, because you need an accountant that gets all this, and most in the US do not. I agree with her that the system is really bad. We're in the US now, and my Italian wife has none of these hassles: we live in the US and pay taxes in the US and that's that as far as Italy is concerned.

> because you need an accountant that gets all this,

As someone who has been through this, perhaps you can explain why this is.

What makes it so different from US taxes for people living in the US? You definitely do not need an accountant here.

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