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On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

rachelsruminations.com

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Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#161
post #9

It's not like a divorce, because there is no way to become a US citizen again after you've renounced your citizenship. e: I was wrong; see below.

Are you saying the immigrant visa path isn't available to former citizens? That seems surprising. Sure, it's a very difficult path in practice... But in theory I don't see why something like this wouldn't be possible: you renounced your citizenship, win the Nobel Prize 30 years later, get an EB-1 visa based on that achievement, then get naturalized five years later.

There have been (so far unsuccessful, but possibly successful in the future) attempts to ban US citizens who renounce from ever stepping foot in the US again.

> (E) Former citizens who renounced citizenship.— Any alien who is a former citizen of the United States who officially renounced United States citizenship is inadmissible. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Amendment_(immigration)

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#162
If you're an "accidental American" (holding US citizenship due to having being born in the US, though never having resided there as an adult) in a French-speaking European country, you may be interested in the "accidental Americans" association

   https://www.americains-accidentels.fr/
They organize various legal challenges concerning the consequences of FATCA legislation for EU citizens (in particular, difficulties in having a bank account) and the principle of extra-territorial taxation, as well as challenging the difficulty and unreasonable cost of renouncing US citizenship.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s clear from your response that you’re not at all familiar with the issues here. I’m a bit confused as to why you’d feel the need to share your opinion on a topic where you’re very clearly not well informed. As an American expat for five years, I can assure you her complaints are accurate. 1. Not remotely the same. As a resident of a particular state, your senators and congresspeople are certainly looking out for…

> It’s clear from your response that you’re not at all familiar with the issues here Im NOT! I'm trying to understand it. It appears that she's giving up her citizenship so she doesn't have to use a VPN and has a better selection of banks and to avoid paying $1000 a year? Seems like a citizenship is worth WAY more than that! Something doesn't add up here! Or do people with a lot of money just have a lot less toleranc…

It genuinely is far more invasive and frustrating than you'd expect.

I'm a dual US/UK citizen, living in the UK for four years. I have been turned away from local banks for being American. I have also had American banks and brokerages unilaterally terminate my prior accounts for moving abroad. I cannot reasonably purchase local life insurance policies nor mutual funds without tripping over IRS regulations that strip them of any preferential tax treatment and impose unimaginably onerous reporting requirements (PFIC).

As a dual citizen, you would think I could just bank with my British passport and conceal my American citizenship. Except foreign banks in countries with normal diplomatic relations with America are required to proactively search their customer database for indications of potential American citizens, report their details, and possibly preventatively withhold 30% of all payments to those accounts (FATCA). This is a right pain in the ass, so those institutions will often preemptively exclude customers who seem too American from the outset.

I have to rigorously report the highest monthly balance / value of every single one of my foreign assets and accounts, every year, to both the IRS and FinCEN, on entirely separate and incompatible forms.

And I get to pay thousands of dollars a year for the pleasure of being locked out of basic financial vehicles (life insurance policies!) and proving to Uncle Sam that I don't owe him anything. It's especially galling because this kind of reporting and taxation for foreign-domiciled citizens is unique to America, at least of developed countries.

Not to mention that all of this joy, and more, extends to your spouse, regardless of their citizenship.

I keep doing it, year after year, because I still believe in America. But after a few years without stepping on American soil, the question why am I still doing this comes of its own accord.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#164
post #43
post #33

I have a question about this, that I've never been able to find a good answer to: what happens if you unilaterally renounce US citizenship? Consider the situation: you're a dual US / Dutch citizen. You want to avoid paying US income tax (or just to avoid filling in a form each year that results in the IRS telling you that your tax bill is $0 because the Netherlands' tax rate is higher). But the State Department's ren…

> Your method of enforcing this would (I assume) be to file a suit against the bank in the Netherlands and seek an order to prevent them from passing any information on you to the IRS. You would effectively be asking a Dutch court to rule on whether you can unilaterally renounce US citizenship. This is incorrect. The method of enforcing tax obligations is spelled out in bilateral tax treaties. In this instance the US…

I expect there is such a treaty, but presumably it specifies that the Netherlands will have certain obligations regarding US citizens that reside in the Netherlands. I doubt it will be specific on who actually is a US citizen.

Further, you might still be able to prevail in a court. You would essentially be asking a court to find that you have a unilateral right to renounce a citizenship. Again, I doubt such a right is explicitly set out in any Netherlands law, but you would would be arguing that such a right is implied by some other principles. If the court were to find in your favor, the fact that the Netherlands has a treaty to the contrary would merely mean that the treaty was now incompatible with Dutch law.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#165
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who lived in Italy for years, it is a total hassle to file US taxes, because you need an accountant that gets all this, and most in the US do not. I agree with her that the system is really bad. We're in the US now, and my Italian wife has none of these hassles: we live in the US and pay taxes in the US and that's that as far as Italy is concerned.

> because you need an accountant that gets all this, As someone who has been through this, perhaps you can explain why this is. What makes it so different from US taxes for people living in the US? You definitely do not need an accountant here.

This paper lays it out pretty well. There’s a parallel tax code that is more complicated, and that’s before the nuances of tax treaties factor in.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3795480

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#166
post #52
post #33

I have a question about this, that I've never been able to find a good answer to: what happens if you unilaterally renounce US citizenship? Consider the situation: you're a dual US / Dutch citizen. You want to avoid paying US income tax (or just to avoid filling in a form each year that results in the IRS telling you that your tax bill is $0 because the Netherlands' tax rate is higher). But the State Department's ren…

That's fascinating. I'm not a lawyer but I'd guess that since you're citizen at the time, you'd have to follow the law for renouncing citizenship. You "unilaterally" renouncing it wouldn't mean anything since the law of the country says different. Perhaps consult a lawyer and if they say that there might be something there try to crowdfund it.

> since the law of the country says different.

But this is exactly the point. US law specifies what you must do to give up US citizenship. And the US would continue to regard you as a citizen - you definitely put yourself in a position of not being able to set foot on US soil without consequences if you go this route.

But remember, in this scenario you live in the Netherlands. You want Dutch law to agree that you are not a US citizen, thus relieving you of your obligations so long as you continue to live in the Netherlands.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#167
post #33

I have a question about this, that I've never been able to find a good answer to: what happens if you unilaterally renounce US citizenship? Consider the situation: you're a dual US / Dutch citizen. You want to avoid paying US income tax (or just to avoid filling in a form each year that results in the IRS telling you that your tax bill is $0 because the Netherlands' tax rate is higher). But the State Department's ren…

It is good business for gov, so of course it fails. There is something similar that happens regularly. Perhaps look at gaining citizenship at country that allows only single citizenship. It should make American citizenship null and void.

Germany is such a country. However, as part of granting you citizenship they do a search for other countries that you have citizenship of. I believe they will not grant you German citizenship until you have relinquished your other citizenship.

I suppose another test case would be if you were to apply for German citizenship following your unilateral renunciation.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#168
post #40
post #33

I have a question about this, that I've never been able to find a good answer to: what happens if you unilaterally renounce US citizenship? Consider the situation: you're a dual US / Dutch citizen. You want to avoid paying US income tax (or just to avoid filling in a form each year that results in the IRS telling you that your tax bill is $0 because the Netherlands' tax rate is higher). But the State Department's ren…

> you tell all your banks that you are not a US citizen and ask them to update your details accordingly. Banks abroad demand proof beyond just telling them that. You need to show the Certificate of Loss of Nationality or present a US Taxpayer Identification Number.

This is why I suspect such an attempt would require going via the courts. You would say to the bank "I have unilaterally renounced my citizenship", the bank would not accept it, and you would be asking the court to order the bank to recognize that renunciation.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#169
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the multinationals that set the agenda in the US care about any of that?

Most of them make more money abroad than they do in the U.S. Setting up foreign branches is critical for their ability to reach new markets. Most of these branches are setup by U.S. citizens or permanent residents who have a deep history with their U.S-based employer and often personal connections with the executives at the home office. It is much easier to retain and pay these people if the bureaucratic hoops for re…

Once they've set up the foreign branch, they don't really care if they retain them. Most foreign branches aren't staffed by Americans. This is also a 1 time thing in each country that they start a branch in, not an on going concern.

>they will be less tempted to jump ship and set up competing businesses that jumpstart a foreign country's industry

The number of instances of this happening has to be close to zero.

Re: On Receiving my Certificate of Loss of Nationality

#170
I registered this account to make this post in the hope that it helps readers of HN and others.

Under U.S. law, citizenship and nationality are two different things. The common refrain, well-established and reified by no less a body than the Supreme Court, is, "All citizens are nationals, but not all nationals are citizens." In other words, the set of U.S. citizens is a subset of the set of U.S. nationals. (The set of U.S. nationals is itself is a subset of the set of U.S. persons; viz. U.S. entities such as corporations or LLC's are U.S. persons but not U.S. nationals.) The rights and privileges, and duties and obligations, conferred on the two groups, U.S. citizens and U.S. nationals, substantially overlap, but do not coincide. Both U.S. citizens and nationals have the right to enter or exit the United States of America at any time and for any reason, both have the right to reside indefinitely, and both are authorized to work without restriction. In general, U.S. citizenship confers all of the features of U.S. nationalship, plus some; U.S. nationals are barred from certain activities, such as voting in federal elections and, generally, are exempt from being called to serve on a jury.

The author of this article found her U.S. citizenship to be too burdensome to maintain, and therefore relinquished her U.S. nationality, thereby indirectly relinquishing her U.S. citizenship. Was this necessary? You will notice that the IRS claims the authority to tax (a) the income of U.S. persons (which includes U.S. citizens, U.S. nationals, U.S. entities such as corporations or LLC's, and non-citizen and non-national residents), and (b) the worldwide income of U.S. citizens.

But does the IRS claim the authority to tax the worldwide income of non-U.S. citizen, non-U.S. persons...such as non-resident U.S. nationals?

It really makes you think.

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