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Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

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Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#221

Post by dionidium »

danShumway wrote: post #149
3np wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm computer illiterate, I can't learn any of this fancy tech stuff. This learned helplessness scares me a bit. It's like the willingness to comprehend stops at "tap". "What are you talking about, 'steering wheel'?! I'm not a greasemonkey, are you talking about the thing I turn to make the car turn?" Not knowing is one thing, refusing to take in any new knowledge is another.

There are a lot of things that contribute to learned helplessness, but in my opinion one underrated cause (for computers) is lack of security. Particularly with touchscreens, it's really easy to break settings or delete something if you're doing something fiddly. I think people underestimate how powerful concepts like the recycling bin are, history, etc... in making people feel a bit more confident about experimentin…

> Particularly with touchscreens, it's really easy to break settings or delete something if you're doing something fiddly.

I think this is correct. Turning the steering wheel never randomly creates a bunch of new problems for the user that they don't understand. It works the same way every time over the course of the user's entire life. I've probably made millions of turns of a steering wheel and all it's ever done is turn the wheels.

The "learned helplessness" here is on us, not the users.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#222

Post by EvanAnderson »

pitaj wrote: post #157
frosted-flakes wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top-side filters and oil extraction pumps make oil changes almost effortless. The biggest problem for me is disposing of the oil. There are several vehicles in my family, and the old oil just collects in jugs by the garage door. The nearest hazardous waste centre at the landfill will only accept two jugs at a time, and they won't take 5 gallon buckets at all. They will not accept 10 jugs (<2 years' worth), let alone…

Often parts stored like AutoZone, O'Reilly's etc accept waste oil.

This. I had a similar situation to the GP poster-- years of used oil piled up in jugs in the garage. One trip to a local parts store and the issue was resolved. It was shockingly easy.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#223

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #200
cletus wrote: post #145

This is a good example of making the mistake of conflating implementation details and user interface design. Firefox always had two boxes: URL bar and search. One of the big changes Chrome made when it was born was to have the Omnibar, being of course one bar that does both. If you think about this as an engineer, Firefox's design decision makes sense. You don't want to accidentally leak things to a search engine. UR…

> Tech-savvy people will just type "facebook.com" Tech-savvy people will type f, see that their browser completes "acebook.com", and press enter. That's a form of search, it's just more directly provided by the browser and unambiguously serving the user. (Ideally, tech-savvy people will type f and see no signs of facebook whatsoever, but that's an orthogonal issue.)

> (Ideally, tech-savvy people will type f and see no signs of facebook whatsoever, but that's an orthogonal issue.)

I'm tech-savvy and I use Facebook all the time. :-P

Going off-topic here, but outside of Facebook's issues with privacy, I think Facebook is a fine platform. Most of the issues people have with Facebook (again, ignoring the privacy issues) are self-inflicted. You have a racist uncle and don't want to see his bigotry in your feed? Unfollow him. Or in my case, just unfriend him entirely. You want to follow your government representatives to see what's on their mind? Great, just don't engage with the morons in the comment section.

Facebook is a great way to keep up with what your friends are up to. A friend of mine recently went on a trip to Scotland, and I enjoyed his posts on what he was doing. When I got married, it was an easy way to share the photos, since nobody uses Flickr these days.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#224

Post by JohnWhigham »

windowsrookie wrote: post #106
jabroni_salad wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I promise you it is younger people too. I train bank workers from freshly minted tellers to longtime officers, none of them can navigate to a URL unless it is a clickable hyperlink. The URL is one of the most foundational elements of internet usage, it is the way to get directly to where you want to go. Having a map is nice, but don't you need to know how to walk in order to get where you are going? Heck, there have…

I've actually been hearing and interesting theory that the younger generation is becoming even more computer illiterate than the generation before them. The younger generation was raised on iPads and iPhones where everything is easy to use and "just works". They've never had to do anything beyond tap the icon for the App they want. Edit: Was going to talk about that same article about File directories.

where everything is easy to use and "just works"

And that's unironically a good thing. To poorly paraphrase Alan Kay, you know a certain piece of technology works when it gets out of the way and becomes second nature.

However we're now encountering one of those pesky questions that we never hear about in sci-fi because it's hard to solve and it's not fun for authors to write about: are we setting up future generations for failure by making technology too easy? And it's most likely "yes". I wonder out loud: are children not getting courses on how to use a desktop computer anymore like they used to in the 90s/2000s? It seems like it. Even if they never encounter having to browse a file system again until they graduate, the fact that it's at least introduced to them while their brains are still terrific sponges would be beneficial.

I've never had to do long division after ~6th grade, but given a few minutes of recall, I can get right back into it because of the rote learning I had.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#225

Post by motoboi »

wrs wrote: post #177
motoboi wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I painstakingly developed a personal script for how to teach people how to split a screen between two chrome tabs. This is amazingly and surprisingly difficult thing to explain over the phone to “normal” (born before computers were prevalent) people. Basically I got it divided in two groups: those who have used internet for the first time after 18 years old (hardest group. Have to explain in terms of geometrical figu…

I think I’m still doing pretty well with knowing about and even understanding new technology. The thing is, I have a harder time finding it worthwhile . Like social media that seems to have a 5 year cycle just because the younger kids don’t want to be seen using what the older kids use. Do we really need a new IM system and different way of posting short videos to friends every 5 years? So much “technology” change is…

You know you are old when you start think about younger people ways and solutions as frivolous.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#226

Post by cameronh90 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #135
david422 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my mom. Trying to walk her through steps on the phone like logins and lost passwords is a nightmare. I imagine it would be like a car mechanic trying to walk me through changing the oil over the phone. Since it's not in my interests, I just want it to work, I don't have any desire to learn it.

> I imagine it would be like a car mechanic trying to walk me through changing the oil over the phone. Since it's not in my interests, I just want it to work, I don't have any desire to learn it. Really? I don't believe there exists a task I theoretically could perform if I knew the steps, that I would be unable to do if those steps were being explained to me by an expert. Even if it was gardening or cooking (two are…

There are some tasks that require finesse, like hovering a helicopter, riding a bicycle or even balancing a clutch.

Most people can't do those initially no matter how much an expert explains it - until they build up the muscle memory. Cooking and gardening are like that but to a much lesser extent.

Of course typing into a URL bar is nothing like that.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#227

Post by sly010 »

II2II wrote: post #214
cletus wrote: post #145

This is a good example of making the mistake of conflating implementation details and user interface design. Firefox always had two boxes: URL bar and search. One of the big changes Chrome made when it was born was to have the Omnibar, being of course one bar that does both. If you think about this as an engineer, Firefox's design decision makes sense. You don't want to accidentally leak things to a search engine. UR…

I am going to disagree since I believe that people should have a basic knowledge of the tools they are using. I am not saying that the bar should be particularly high, but being able to differentiate where something is and searching for something is a realistic expectation. That being said, I think developers have made some things more difficult to understand than they should be. While people understand what an addre…

There is always a tradeoff between making something better for power users and making it bullet proof for (ab)users. Indeed, chrome strikes a pretty good balance.

Also

> bar should be particularly high

hehe

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#228

Post by scubbo »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #223
JoshTriplett wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech-savvy people will just type "facebook.com" Tech-savvy people will type f, see that their browser completes "acebook.com", and press enter. That's a form of search, it's just more directly provided by the browser and unambiguously serving the user. (Ideally, tech-savvy people will type f and see no signs of facebook whatsoever, but that's an orthogonal issue.)

> (Ideally, tech-savvy people will type f and see no signs of facebook whatsoever, but that's an orthogonal issue.) I'm tech-savvy and I use Facebook all the time. :-P Going off-topic here, but outside of Facebook's issues with privacy, I think Facebook is a fine platform. Most of the issues people have with Facebook (again, ignoring the privacy issues) are self-inflicted. You have a racist uncle and don't want to se…

> Most of the issues people have with Facebook (again, ignoring the privacy issues)

This is _massively_ shifting the goalposts. From a personal user perspective, the privacy issues are pretty much the entirety of the problem with Facebook.

But you're also missing the fact that Facebook _itself_ is A Bad Thing for the world, even if it is locally useful as a product. The parent commenter is presumably saying that it would be a good thing if Facebook did not exist (I agree), not just that it would be a good thing for each individual person if they didn't use Facebook. Even if _you_ unfollow your racist uncle, he's continuing to use the platform to hear and spread more racist invective.

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#229

Post by dylan604 »

denton-scratch wrote: post #168
coldpie wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is actively trying to kill the URL[1]. I'm not sure whether it's good or bad, but it is a goal of theirs to fundamentally change or eliminate the URL entry bar, yes. [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/google-chrome-ends-i...

URLs are awful; I think they are a bodge. I think the same about domain names, and the whole DNS system. I mean, I think the DNS was a brilliant invention; it saved you having to memorise the IP address of every site you visited. But talking someone through entering a URL over the phone is a bit like fixing printer problems remotely; it feels like the early '80s. But I'd prefer real URL bars, rather than a field that…

If you're talking about telling someone over the phone how to enter example.com/specificpage.ext?key1=val1&key2=val2&key3=ABCDEFG0123456789, I'd agree that is painful and hopefully not necessary. Telling someone to enter example.com into the URL bar, click on the specificpage link, then select the correct information for the printer you have is much easier

Re: Every search bar looks like a URL bar to users

#230

Post by unsui »

II2II wrote: post #214
cletus wrote: post #145

This is a good example of making the mistake of conflating implementation details and user interface design. Firefox always had two boxes: URL bar and search. One of the big changes Chrome made when it was born was to have the Omnibar, being of course one bar that does both. If you think about this as an engineer, Firefox's design decision makes sense. You don't want to accidentally leak things to a search engine. UR…

I am going to disagree since I believe that people should have a basic knowledge of the tools they are using. I am not saying that the bar should be particularly high, but being able to differentiate where something is and searching for something is a realistic expectation. That being said, I think developers have made some things more difficult to understand than they should be. While people understand what an addre…

> believe that people should have a basic knowledge of the tools they are using

The whole point of intuitive design is to realize that you shouldn't make your users "think", insofar as making effortful cognition (i.e., Kahneman's "Type 2" thinking).

Good design should leverage built-in assumptions of how the world, per users' intuitive mental models, to create affordances that guide users to the desired interaction and behavior.

If a design promotes incoherent behavior, it's not the user that's wrong; getting users to change intuitive behavior requires training and cognitive effort.

Sadly, why vim and emacs are still difficult for newbies to pick up. Yes, the learning curve is (arguably) minimal; that's not the point. It's that there is a learning curve at all.

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