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Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

nytimes.com

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Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#61

Post by Glyptodon »

justin66 wrote: post #46
jbrwn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am inclined to agree with you but I am also somewhat conflicted due to recent events at my alma mater. It was just revealed that a tenured CS professor is the author of a hate filled blog that disparages women, lgbtq+, and minorities [1]. Ostensibly this guy is "protected" due to his tenure status. I am not sure this is really good for anyone. [1] http://www.montanakaimin.com/news/computer-science-professor...

A tenured faculty member can still be fired for cause. I wouldn't assume that guy's job is safe.

Usually after multiple incidents, warnings, rehabilitation plans, and all kinds of chances nobody else gets.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#62

Post by Glyptodon »

badRNG wrote: post #32
amadeuspagel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Professors most certainly are not a "privileged elite class." What is tenure if not a privilege? And if it isn't then what's the problem here? If tenure isn't something valuable then why are we discussing a story about it being taken away? EDIT: Just lol at the downvotes and the comments here. Lots of snark, personal attacks, but no one actually able to explain how tenure is not a privilege.

Ah yes, the "privileged elite class" consisting of underpaid professors, and the oppressed have finally risen up to turn the power to control speech back over to administrators where that power rightly belongs.

Really depends on the field. Prestigious profs leading departments or research institutes are making multiples of $100k, even if an average niche humanities profs are making waaaaaay less. And tons of people are trapped in adjunct work.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#63

Post by [deleted] »

amadeuspagel wrote: post #55
shepardrtc wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How else? So you admit that they are privileged in one sense, in the sense of having tenure, of not having to fear getting fired for speech, and you're asking me how else they are privilged? You're manipulating what I said. The word 'else' is in reference to what other ways do YOU think they are privileged. And you still haven't answered the questions.

> You're manipulating what I said. The word 'else' is in reference to what other ways do YOU think they are privileged. OK. So you do not admit that tenure is a privilege? > And you still haven't answered the questions. You have some nerve. You write a comment filled with snark and personal attacks that doesn't answer any of my questions, and now you demand that I answer your questions?

[deleted]

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#64

Post by mensetmanusman »

shepardrtc wrote: post #25
mensetmanusman wrote: post #6

This just means they got rid of the concept of tenure. Albeit, I have heard it argued that tenure is not as relevant in the modern era of social media and twitter mobs, because academia is turning into a monoculture of thought through self-censorship. It is understandable that the more diverse taxpaying public would start to question the purpose of protecting the views of a privileged elite class when they themselves…

> privileged elite class Professors most certainly are not a "privileged elite class." They're research/teaching specialists. Your talking point sounds straight out of some right-wing website/tv channel.

Sorry, I should have added ‘’ around ‘privileged elite class’ to be more clear that it is certainly a label up for debate.

Unfortunately, with the destruction of many jobs due to outsourcing and the shrinking middle class, there are a growing % (and number) of citizens who would consider tenured professors (and their surrounding bureaucracy) an elite institution that looks down on their way of life. Treading this carefully might be necessary since their voting power is growing.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#65

Post by happyjack »

Another nail in the American University casket. I worked in academic research for 3 years, and GTFO. I still have a project here and there with a University, but I largely avoid them.

While I do, in principle, agree with the tenure system, it's just not compatible with what the American University system has become. The system has two systems within it: 1. teach / train / attract students and charge large tuition for promises of them entering the workforce higher than their high school colleagues (and justify the price with parties and college football, new dorms, etc.) 2. perform high end research that is funded by Uncle Sam, in which the Universities' skim 40-120% overhead on (yes, OVER 100%) that pays the bills and keeps the lights on. Also pays for large admin salaries.

Universities are corporations, and are "for profit." I'm not sure free inquiry, free speech, and the likes are compatible with making students feel safe / not offended so they can attract their tuition $, while also attracting $ from Uncle Sam and corporations for research.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#66

Post by jbrwn »

JasonFruit wrote: post #45
jbrwn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am inclined to agree with you but I am also somewhat conflicted due to recent events at my alma mater. It was just revealed that a tenured CS professor is the author of a hate filled blog that disparages women, lgbtq+, and minorities [1]. Ostensibly this guy is "protected" due to his tenure status. I am not sure this is really good for anyone. [1] http://www.montanakaimin.com/news/computer-science-professor...

I think that politically correct ideas about one of those groups are both illogical and harmful to society. Some might find my views repugnant and wrongly describe them as "hate-filled". Does that mean I shouldn't be able to hold a job, or that to do so I should have to hide my opinions and express them only surreptitiously? If not, your argument against tenure doesn't hold. If so, I'd love to hear more about your re…

> Does that mean I shouldn't be able to hold a job, or that to do so I should have to hide my opinions and express them only surreptitiously?

You should, and are, free to express those opinions but bigotry is not a protected class. Your employer should be free to fire you if it doesn't like what you are saying.

What value does tenure provide in this scenario? His blog is not related to CS or academia. He is doing harm to the reputation of the university and CS department.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#67

Post by JasonFruit »

jbrwn wrote: post #66
JasonFruit wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that politically correct ideas about one of those groups are both illogical and harmful to society. Some might find my views repugnant and wrongly describe them as "hate-filled". Does that mean I shouldn't be able to hold a job, or that to do so I should have to hide my opinions and express them only surreptitiously? If not, your argument against tenure doesn't hold. If so, I'd love to hear more about your re…

> Does that mean I shouldn't be able to hold a job, or that to do so I should have to hide my opinions and express them only surreptitiously? You should, and are, free to express those opinions but bigotry is not a protected class. Your employer should be free to fire you if it doesn't like what you are saying. What value does tenure provide in this scenario? His blog is not related to CS or academia. He is doing har…

I don't agree that he's "doing harm to the reputation of the university and CS department." I notice that it's especially with regard to universities that this argument arises. If he were working at Cost Cutters, or Copps Foods, or State Farm, no one would think that his employer was acting wrongly in employing him. There is nothing about a university that makes employing someone with his opinions do more reputational harm. On the contrary, a university has more reason to tolerate his divergent views, because it is directly concerned with intellectual freedom and free inquiry, which often leads people to investigate and even advocate for positions that are incorrect and even immoral (which, I agree, a cursory look at his website suggests his are). That's what tenure provides in this scenario: protection for intellectual freedom, even when free inquiry carries a professor into areas that are disapproved of in polite society.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#68

Post by rc2634 »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #6

This just means they got rid of the concept of tenure. Albeit, I have heard it argued that tenure is not as relevant in the modern era of social media and twitter mobs, because academia is turning into a monoculture of thought through self-censorship. It is understandable that the more diverse taxpaying public would start to question the purpose of protecting the views of a privileged elite class when they themselves…

This is most likely being done to remove professors who are arguing against monoculture of thought and censorship.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#69

Post by jaywalk »

akomtu wrote: post #47
jaywalk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That last sentence seems like the key. Tenured professors basically have not been held accountable, and they don't want to start being held accountable now.

Accountable to whom? To unelected bureocrats in administration?

To anyone. Also, the Board of Regents is elected.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#70

Post by jbrwn »

JasonFruit wrote: post #67
jbrwn wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does that mean I shouldn't be able to hold a job, or that to do so I should have to hide my opinions and express them only surreptitiously? You should, and are, free to express those opinions but bigotry is not a protected class. Your employer should be free to fire you if it doesn't like what you are saying. What value does tenure provide in this scenario? His blog is not related to CS or academia. He is doing har…

I don't agree that he's "doing harm to the reputation of the university and CS department." I notice that it's especially with regard to universities that this argument arises. If he were working at Cost Cutters, or Copps Foods, or State Farm, no one would think that his employer was acting wrongly in employing him. There is nothing about a university that makes employing someone with his opinions do more reputationa…

> I don't agree that he's "doing harm to the reputation of the university and CS department."

Well thats where we disagree i guess. When people google University of Montana computer science and see the dozens of articles that pop up about this guy they are not going to think oh yay this school is a champion of intellectual freedom. They are going to see a tenured professor propping up the worst of the worst CS stereotypes and software engineering bro culture.

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