Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#51

Post by what_is_orcas » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

The_Beta wrote: post #15

buckie wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to climate change in the 21st century, where we'll be outraged/distracted by everything but how ~100 companies are responsible for 70% of global emissions[1]. Today we’ll be talking about evil terrorism enabling cryptocurrencies. Tomorrow we’ll be talking about individual choice and SUVs. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10...

I keep seeing this argument that companies are responsible for pollution. While yes it's true, why do you think those companies are polluting? It's not because they get up in the morning and say "better go pollute a bit more today!" They are creating products/services for people. So if it bothers you that much then stop using those products/services. Not possible? Then vote to change laws. Not possible? Revolution I…

> It's not because they get up in the morning and say "better go pollute a bit more today!"

Of course not, but they do actively make decisions based on profit over sustainability.

> So if it bothers you that much then stop using those products/services. Not possible? Then vote to change laws. Not possible? Revolution

One voter voting on an issue doesn't change anything. These kinds of arguments must be made to convince others to vote with you on the issue. The same could be said of a revolution: a one person revolt doesn't go anywhere, we need more folks to embrace the revolution.

There's also been a concerted effort by corporations over the past few decades to shift blame from corporations & manufacturers responsible for pollution onto the consumers, which makes arguments like these necessary (because otherwise the only argument on the market is that we consumers are just buying plastics to spite the environment, to be hyperbolic about it).

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#52

Post by MrRadar » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

mitchellst wrote: post #18

temp8964 wrote: post #6

> In the United States, crypto mining could cost residential and business ratepayers $1 billion a year, the researchers estimate. Is $1 billion a year across the whole country a significant number?

It's a good question without an obvious answer. Best reasons to think it might be. 1) It's not evenly distributed over 330M residents. It's concentrated in certain areas, and we don't have a single nationwide electricity market where supply and demand operate. So it is concentrated in places like Upstate New York and Texas. Spread over few people. 2) It's priced into a daily necessity for people. The poor are the one…

Would anyone who downvoted this comment please write why you did? It seems well-reasoned, factually correct, and does not violate any of the HN guidelines.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#53

Post by blackbear_ » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

hervature wrote: post #30

blackbear_ wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So correlation implies causation? Well, would you argue that people started mining bitcoins because energy became more expensive? The other direction looks more plausible, especially if you consider basic economic theory: as demand goes up, prices also go up.

Not knowing which direction of the causation what “correlation does not mean causation” means. It means there are possible confounders. A simple one here being a policy change at the federal level like reduced subsidies. So all the states that had cheap power (and hence attracted mining) had to raise prices. Of course, the supply-demand mechanism is a pretty strong argument though.

Yes, that is a very good point.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#54

Post by cabbageoverload » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

axx0 wrote: post #48

Workaccount2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That energy has output besides random hashes.

a global p2p payment network has value.

If people were using Bitcoin for that purpose I might agree.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#55

Post by VHRanger » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

kloch wrote: post #50

MereInterest wrote: post #7

When chain letters (e.g. the Send a Time pyramid scheme) caused impact to the postal system beyond what the system was designed to handle, to the detriment of the intended users of the system, chain letters were banned. Now, Bitcoin serves as a similar, though obfuscated, pyramid scheme that is detrimental to intended usage of the power system for productiviry or enjoyment. I see no reason not to apply the same solut…

I don't think it's reasonable to compare cryptocurrencies to chain letters. Chain letters' sole purpose is to enrich early adopters at the expense of later participants. While early adopters of cryptocurrencies frequently do reap windfall gains, it is not necessarily at the expense of later users as it is with chain letters. The early adopter benefits for cryptocurrencies are no different than early investors in a bu…

Crypto is not being used in any meaningful quantity for anything except speculation and crime.

While some crypto may be at some point in the future a decent medium of exchange, at this point they're all deflationary and inefficient, leading only to uses in marketing stunts (Tesla, El Salvador, etc.)

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#56

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

aazaa wrote: post #11

> In Upstate New York, where a quarter of US crypto mining takes place, the researchers find that electricity rates have gone up in response to rising demand. Their study demonstrates that because of bitcoin mining’s power usage, households paid an additional $165 million a year in energy costs, while businesses paid an extra $79 million. In China, where more than two-thirds of the world’s crypto mining took place ov…

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#57

Post by YungMoolah » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

aazaa wrote: post #11

> In Upstate New York, where a quarter of US crypto mining takes place, the researchers find that electricity rates have gone up in response to rising demand. Their study demonstrates that because of bitcoin mining’s power usage, households paid an additional $165 million a year in energy costs, while businesses paid an extra $79 million. In China, where more than two-thirds of the world’s crypto mining took place ov…

Your first quote appears after the part about XRP, so you did keep reading after that. Seems like you just tacked on some commentary on XRP for no reason then.

Why are you posting your opinions on something you claim you never read?

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#58

Post by fleddr » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

The_Beta wrote: post #15

buckie wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to climate change in the 21st century, where we'll be outraged/distracted by everything but how ~100 companies are responsible for 70% of global emissions[1]. Today we’ll be talking about evil terrorism enabling cryptocurrencies. Tomorrow we’ll be talking about individual choice and SUVs. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10...

I keep seeing this argument that companies are responsible for pollution. While yes it's true, why do you think those companies are polluting? It's not because they get up in the morning and say "better go pollute a bit more today!" They are creating products/services for people. So if it bothers you that much then stop using those products/services. Not possible? Then vote to change laws. Not possible? Revolution I…

Exactly. People are always quick to call for a ban on any externality they can blame whilst not spending a single thought cycle on their own behavior.

As soon as principles are really tested, it's crickets.

People have large TVs, ACs, high-end gaming PCs, a ton of devices, huge cars, eat lots of meat, use air travel, and drown themselves in cheap packages from China.

All of this life-style is our natural birth right, and none of its should be banned or taxed. Also, it doesn't contribute to the climate problem at all. It's all Bitcoin's fault. Or, the "industry".

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#59

Post by baseballdork » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

keymone wrote: post #39

baseballdork wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, because the DoD uses a lot of energy, we should be okay with the energy a speculative asset consumes?

you should be ok with market participants paying market price for a finite resource sold on a market.

Why? This is not a free market, nor a market price that reflects externalities of generating that energy. I'm not okay with 0.5% of the earth's energy being consumed to produce sha sums for the sole purpose of mining speculative assets.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#60

Post by helen___keller » Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

kloch wrote: post #50

MereInterest wrote: post #7

When chain letters (e.g. the Send a Time pyramid scheme) caused impact to the postal system beyond what the system was designed to handle, to the detriment of the intended users of the system, chain letters were banned. Now, Bitcoin serves as a similar, though obfuscated, pyramid scheme that is detrimental to intended usage of the power system for productiviry or enjoyment. I see no reason not to apply the same solut…

I don't think it's reasonable to compare cryptocurrencies to chain letters. Chain letters' sole purpose is to enrich early adopters at the expense of later participants. While early adopters of cryptocurrencies frequently do reap windfall gains, it is not necessarily at the expense of later users as it is with chain letters. The early adopter benefits for cryptocurrencies are no different than early investors in a bu…

> Unlike chain letters cryptocurrencies provide a useful utility of a medium of exchange coupled with consensus based algorithmic scarcity. This is an attractive alternative to centrally planned fiat currencies that are persistently and intentionally debased over time

Your argument is essentially circular, that crypto isn't a pyramid scheme because it's not a pyramid scheme.

I'm not trying to claim a side here, but some would say that crypto is a pyramid scheme masquerading as a legitimate tool, and that the primary function is for speculative investment. Similarly, imagine a chain letter pyramid scheme that happens to also implement a social network, and claims to not be a pyramid scheme but a networking mailing list where the early contributors happen to receive windfalls.

Whether you agree that crypto is as bad as chain mail is obviously dependent on your view if crypto implements a useful product, or if it primarily exists for speculative mania and the "product" is a masquerade to build legitimacy.