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Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

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Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#11

Post by aazaa »

> In Upstate New York, where a quarter of US crypto mining takes place, the researchers find that electricity rates have gone up in response to rising demand. Their study demonstrates that because of bitcoin mining’s power usage, households paid an additional $165 million a year in energy costs, while businesses paid an extra $79 million. In China, where more than two-thirds of the world’s crypto mining took place over the past decade, electricity rates are set by the government and inflexible to demand. Crypto miners there were crowding other industries out of the market and forcing electricity to be rationed, the research suggests.

So correlation implies causation?

I'm not sure if the study is just flawed or the article is doing an especially bad job of explaining it.

I won't be reading the paper because of this:

> Benetton and Compiani received financial support from Ripple’s University Blockchain Research Initiative. Ripple Labs supports the cryptocurrency XRP.

XRP is a scam run by Ripple labs. The company routinely mis-states the utility of XRP.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#12

Post by hellbannedguy »

assbuttbuttass wrote: post #3

China sure made the right choice to ban crypto. 0.5% of the world's energy is insane

Xi is making a lot of good decisions lately. Put a mouthy billionaire in his place--great. Make school equity more advantageous to the poor kids--good. Put some breaks on gambling--fine.

I do wish he would keep this citizens wealth in China. I'm tired of seeing his wealthy people buying up our realestate, along with every other nation. We only have so much land. It should be set aside for American citizens.

(Lately people. I don't need a lecture of the bad things he has done. I know them, and don't like them.)

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#13

Post by echopurity »

MereInterest wrote: post #7

When chain letters (e.g. the Send a Time pyramid scheme) caused impact to the postal system beyond what the system was designed to handle, to the detriment of the intended users of the system, chain letters were banned. Now, Bitcoin serves as a similar, though obfuscated, pyramid scheme that is detrimental to intended usage of the power system for productiviry or enjoyment. I see no reason not to apply the same solut…

People on HN really think bitcoin is a chain letter.

And they shadow ban people who disagree.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#15

Post by The_Beta »

buckie wrote: post #9
bamboozled wrote: post #2

I’m paying to subsidise the fossil fuel industry, I care more about that, I’m just not outages about this.

Welcome to climate change in the 21st century, where we'll be outraged/distracted by everything but how ~100 companies are responsible for 70% of global emissions[1]. Today we’ll be talking about evil terrorism enabling cryptocurrencies. Tomorrow we’ll be talking about individual choice and SUVs. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10...

I keep seeing this argument that companies are responsible for pollution. While yes it's true, why do you think those companies are polluting? It's not because they get up in the morning and say "better go pollute a bit more today!" They are creating products/services for people.

So if it bothers you that much then stop using those products/services. Not possible? Then vote to change laws. Not possible? Revolution

I get that putting the onus on consumers isn't going to fix the problem, but pointing to a factory that pollutes because you buy their products and want their product cheaply is equally inane

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#16

Post by blackbear_ »

aazaa wrote: post #11

> In Upstate New York, where a quarter of US crypto mining takes place, the researchers find that electricity rates have gone up in response to rising demand. Their study demonstrates that because of bitcoin mining’s power usage, households paid an additional $165 million a year in energy costs, while businesses paid an extra $79 million. In China, where more than two-thirds of the world’s crypto mining took place ov…

> So correlation implies causation?

Well, would you argue that people started mining bitcoins because energy became more expensive? The other direction looks more plausible, especially if you consider basic economic theory: as demand goes up, prices also go up.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#17

Post by TacticalCoder »

It's interesting that now that there are proof-of-stake cryptocurrencies the "cryptocurrencies are polluting the planet" is now becoming "Bitcoin is polluting the planet".

What I'm wondering is if Bitcoin itself could one day switch to proof-of-stake? Is this something the Bitcoin community may consider if proof-of-stakes turns out to work and be secure?

Is this something that is even remotely possible?

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#18

Post by mitchellst »

temp8964 wrote: post #6

> In the United States, crypto mining could cost residential and business ratepayers $1 billion a year, the researchers estimate. Is $1 billion a year across the whole country a significant number?

It's a good question without an obvious answer. Best reasons to think it might be.

1) It's not evenly distributed over 330M residents. It's concentrated in certain areas, and we don't have a single nationwide electricity market where supply and demand operate. So it is concentrated in places like Upstate New York and Texas. Spread over few people.

2) It's priced into a daily necessity for people. The poor are the ones with difficulty paying electricity bills, so while $5 or $20 or $50 on an energy bill may not sound like a lot to some people, it depends on your economic situation. So, it's regressive.

3) Crypto mining is a growth sector. The figure is $1B now. Crypto is still growing and we still haven't seen the full effect of bans in China, which are fairly new. True, US power infrastructure is growing... but so is uptake of electric vehicles. (Another keen interest of the professional class.)

So we have a question of whether supply can keep up with demand, with the solvency of working class families hanging in the balance while that supply/demand problem works itself out. Maybe it'll be fine. Or maybe crypto warms the planet and hurts poor people in service of a neat intellectual toy and speculative asset for the Silicon Valley / Wall Street set.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#19

Post by wyager »

Long-term, Bitcoin is reducing everyone’s electric bill by smoothing out the bathtub curve and making it economical to overprovision energy sources.

Bitcoin mining can easily turn on and off as the price of energy fluctuates, so all of a sudden we have the ability to use energy sources like solar which need to be overprovisioned to ensure that e.g. bad weather doesn’t reduce grid capacity too much. Bitcoin mining just turns off if it’s cloudy.

We also all of a sudden have the ability to economically use energy sources which can’t be spun up and down rapidly, like geothermal. You just leave the turbines running all the time and if you have a surplus you fire up the Bitcoin miners.

Re: Bitcoin mining has driven up energy bills for residents and businesses

#20

Post by BLKNSLVR »

LurkingPenguin wrote: post #8
bamboozled wrote: post #2

I’m paying to subsidise the fossil fuel industry, I care more about that, I’m just not outages about this.

You do realize that energy being used to mine crypto is generated in good part by those fossil fuels you care about, right? https://www.govtech.com/news/bitcoin-mining-in-upstate-new-y...

Apparently it's around 56% renewables-generated electricity.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2021/07/06/bi...

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