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Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

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Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#91

Post by ulnarkressty »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4
junon wrote: post #3

I'm a US expat living in Germany, and boy is the anti-nuclear sentiment real here. There have even been fights - physical altercations - between Green Party members at rallies for having differing viewpoints about nuclear. Unfortunately, it seems those who are against are working with very outdated information and 'tropes' w.r.t. nuclear safety and whatnot. Quite unfortunate.

> a US expat living in Germany, and boy is the anti-nuclear sentiment real here Is it the usual talking points on both sides? Or is there a Teutonic shade to the debate that doesn't surface in e.g. America?

It mostly revolves around storing waste (in other people's back yards), and the mess the government and companies made of it - storing it improperly in mines, and the barrels rusting after some years / leaking waste.

Unfortunately from talking to some of my (really smart) colleagues, this issue is so deeply ingrained that they don't even want to look at other options, or don't really think about that this is a long term problem vs the urgency of climate collapse...

One article that goes a bit about this - https://www.dw.com/en/germany-may-not-see-proper-nuclear-was...

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#92

Post by Gwypaas »

Factorium wrote: post #84
schleck8 wrote: post #59

It's worth noting that nuclear is really expensive when factoring in insurance and disposable, a lot more so than wind and solar. >The cost of generating solar power ranges from $36 to $44 per megawatt hour (MWh), the WNISR said, while onshore wind power comes in at $29–$56 per MWh. Nuclear energy costs between $112 and $189. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-energy-nuclearpower/nucle...

Current wholesale electricity prices in Germany are $194/MWh: https://www.energylive.cloud/ How much does Germany spend on the military? Cancel it, and spend the money on nuclear power. Otherwise Germany has a significant strategic weakness (gas imports) to Russia, its only realistic enemy.

Wholesale energy is priced by the marginal cost, gas peaker plants come in at $150 - $200/MWh so not a surprising price to level out on.

https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-...

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#93

Post by Ericson2314 »

kazinator wrote: post #20
qqtt wrote: post #9

The discussion and debate about nuclear energy needs to be a constant war of attrition against the long held and stubborn inertia of anti-nuclear sentiment. This letter signed by 25 "intellectuals" (oddly vague name for writers and journalists) is part of the puzzle insofar as it gets the discussion into the news. But unless there is a sustained conversation which carries the attention of the public and really drives…

The Cold War takes a lot of the blame: everything from the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, to the subsequent ugly arms race, to bomb testing and its environmental effects. Plus events like Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and Fukushima. Generation X kids were born into an era which felt the threat of global nuclear war, and those people are decision makers today.

Frankly, non-nuclear is austerity in disguise. "Too cheap to meter" electricity is like full employment, objectively better but a huge target politically. It's not a coincidence that US gave up on both at the same time.

https://delong.typepad.com/kalecki43.pdf does justice to the full employment situation, and the same arguments apply. In the econ case it's kind of incredible we filled our minds with nonsense to convince ourselves the thing we had been doing is no longer possible. I suppose the nuclear hysteria served the same roll.

To be clear, I am not trying to argue some sort of conspiracy here. I think it all happened organically, which is frankly even more fascinating. Shows that "truth is endogenous" and the post-modernists had a point long before people whined about Trump.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#94

Post by loeg »

Gwypaas wrote: post #62
initplus wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If fossil fuel power plants were legally responsible for harm caused by their carbon emissions, they would also be impossible to insure.

Who compares against fossil plants nowadays? Except wanting to put a carbon tax on them to account for that issue you mention. Truly, it's new built nuclear compared compared to renewables, storage and long-distance distance transmission. Spatial and temporal arbitrage of energy.

Germany is shutting down nuclear and replacing it with coal and gas. The comparison to fossil fuel is incredibly apt.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#95

Post by thriftwy »

deepsun wrote: post #28
junon wrote: post #3

I'm a US expat living in Germany, and boy is the anti-nuclear sentiment real here. There have even been fights - physical altercations - between Green Party members at rallies for having differing viewpoints about nuclear. Unfortunately, it seems those who are against are working with very outdated information and 'tropes' w.r.t. nuclear safety and whatnot. Quite unfortunate.

I wonder how much of that is supported by Russian govt, because Germany is one of the largest customer for their oil and gas.

Russia also wants to build a lot of nuclear plants around Germany so it won't profit from scaring the one who will eventually foot the bill.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#96

Post by Turing_Machine »

mistrial9 wrote: post #14
junon wrote: post #3

I'm a US expat living in Germany, and boy is the anti-nuclear sentiment real here. There have even been fights - physical altercations - between Green Party members at rallies for having differing viewpoints about nuclear. Unfortunately, it seems those who are against are working with very outdated information and 'tropes' w.r.t. nuclear safety and whatnot. Quite unfortunate.

> very outdated information no rush on that -- we have another 21,000 years of half-life to talk about it, right?

Longer half-life = less radioactive. By definition.

A half-life of infinity would mean that the isotope is not radioactive at all.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#97

Post by proctrap »

kazinator wrote: post #20
qqtt wrote: post #9

The discussion and debate about nuclear energy needs to be a constant war of attrition against the long held and stubborn inertia of anti-nuclear sentiment. This letter signed by 25 "intellectuals" (oddly vague name for writers and journalists) is part of the puzzle insofar as it gets the discussion into the news. But unless there is a sustained conversation which carries the attention of the public and really drives…

The Cold War takes a lot of the blame: everything from the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, to the subsequent ugly arms race, to bomb testing and its environmental effects. Plus events like Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and Fukushima. Generation X kids were born into an era which felt the threat of global nuclear war, and those people are decision makers today.

Why invest into something that will only last 100 years in fuel, take 30k years to deconstruct and may blow into your face at every point in time. Sounds insane.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#98

Post by yosamino »

Factorium wrote: post #36
deepsun wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much of that is supported by Russian govt, because Germany is one of the largest customer for their oil and gas.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41447603 Former Chancellor Gerhard Schroder oversaw the shutdown of Germany's nukes. Now he's on the board of Rosneft, a giant fossil fuel company controlled by the Russian Government.

> Former Chancellor Gerhard Schroder oversaw the shutdown of Germany's nukes.

This is incorrect.

Germany decided to phase out nuclear power after the Fukushima desaster. This was well into Merkels's chancellorship, and there are still nuclear power plants.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#99

Post by _Microft »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #77

No way with the Green Party part of gov. They've literately started out with "Atomkraft - Nein danke" stickers in late 1970s. Mostly seen on cars, then and today.

You have to understand the context that the anti-nuclear movement came from.

First, nuclear weapons had been demonstrated as devastating by killing tens of thousands in Japan. Then the superpowers engaged in a nuclear arms race. A small town in Germany's Hesse was even assigned coordinates 0/0 in NATO maps because it was expected to be nuclear ground zero in case of a push of the Soviets through the Fulda Gap. Add Chernobyl to the mix that showed that even civil use of nuclear power can be dangerous and you get a universal, blanket rejection of all things nuclear. It's really not surprising. Rejection of nuclear power plants might not make a lot of sense nowadays in a stable and developed country like Germany but it is understandable once you look at the history.

Re: Intellectuals urge Germany to keep nuclear plants online

#100

Post by Gwypaas »

loeg wrote: post #94
Gwypaas wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who compares against fossil plants nowadays? Except wanting to put a carbon tax on them to account for that issue you mention. Truly, it's new built nuclear compared compared to renewables, storage and long-distance distance transmission. Spatial and temporal arbitrage of energy.

Germany is shutting down nuclear and replacing it with coal and gas. The comparison to fossil fuel is incredibly apt.

Going by the German energy usage there's no replacement using fossil plants being done. It's all displaced by cheaper renewables, especially coal and old nuclear plants.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g...

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